At the risk of starting another flame-war, (Not my intention earlier) what's everyone's opinion on prayer?
Yeah, that might help, hahah. Leaving it vague, I think prayer is basically a one way conversation. If it makes you feel good or fulfilled in some way, go for it. How does that one saying go ... "I realized the other day that I am God. See, I kneeled by my bed to say a prayer, and I realized that I was talking to myself." ... something like that ...
Prayer directs awareness which directs manifestation, thus prayer is like the rudder of Buddhism. All Buddhists pray.
Chodpa, If prayer is asking a divine being for intervention in worldly affairs, I don't pray. That's why I asked for a definition. And although I don't claim to be a Buddhist...I don't think I would say all Buddhist pray...depending on the definition.
I am a Buddhist. I pray. All Buddhists I know pray. Even if those prayers are called aspirations, dedications, or some other synonym. Prayer is any sort of aspirational dialogue. Prayer is not specifically asking for divine intervention. But can include that.
Chodpa: Ah, if you define prayer as aspirational dialogue, who is that dialogue with? Can it be called prayer if it's with a physical being?
In some cases such as where in a tantra one does a ganachakra then yes, prayer is the mutual aspiration for all nirmanakayas present to re-recognize their natural state of luminous emptiness and so be fulfilled in the supreme wisdom of Buddhahood.
Oops ... Are you sure about that, Chodpa? I'm Buddhist and I don't pray ... I do, however, recite the teachings of Buddha in Pali that outside hearers would most likely call chanting. But, this is not praying. It is a means to facilitate learning and memorizing the texts, suttas, teachings ... HTML: HTML: HTML: HTML:
If Prayer is a dialog being carried on either within the mind or verbally that is directing the awareness toward a higher being (or the self), then prayer and meditation are not the same thing. Meditation is a way to direct the mind to single pointedness, without internalizing a conversatoin. This cannot be done when the mind is constantly engaging in internal dialog, when the mind is hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting, feeling, thinking. Meditation is a means to stop the mind from engaging contact with external objects in order for concentration to arise. If your carrying on a dialog (internal or external) you're not meditating. If your meditating, your not carrying on dialog... HTML: HTML: HTML: HTML:
Well, I'm a tantric, so we have our own methods. They are an extension of the Mahayana, which could be called the aspirational subsect of the Theravadins.
Interesting ... I had no intention of becoming the source of cause for suffering. When you said "All Buddhists pray" I had assumed you had access to data from an interview with all Buddhist everywhere. I suppose we should be more mindful of our words as well as our actions. Neither me, nor you, nor anyone can claim to be witness to, nor claim to have access to undisputed evidence from all Buddhists everywhere that they all pray in one form or another. Granted, there are those who still cling to notions of: a self as being permanent; rituals that something outside themselves can bring fortune or luck, can save them from this or that misfortune, can give them what they want; an end of pain, sorrow, lamentation, despair; and so they turn to praying, beseeching, entreating to a being or beings outside for the things they themselves are capable of enacting. But surely you must recall there are three types of individuals ... those who will never get it (not in the immediate lifetime anyway) ... those who will through repeated teachings ... those who will immediately on hearing for the first time ... So I say that for those who don't understand, then praying is good. However, for those who do understand, then ... well ... there is no need for praying because such an individual will realize that it is they who cause their own suffering by clinging (craving) to personality views, and it is they who carry the seeds for their own liberation from such views ... 1) Right View, 2) Right Intention (Thought), 3) Right Speech, 4) Right Action, 5) Right Livelihood, 6) Right Effort, 7) Right Mindfulness, and 8) Right Concentration ... Sila (Morality) [3,4,5], Samadhi (Single-pointedness of mind) [6,7,8], Panna (Wisdom) [1,2] Aspirational subset of Theravada? I would only be asserting my own personality views by disputing ... so, I'll just leave it at that! HTML: HTML: HTML: HTML:
Darrell, your reticence in expressing yourself, while engaging in irony is a sign of lack of total integration. Something which Tantric Buddhists work through. I do appreciate your clarity regarding my trite generalization however and I will withdraw my statement and replace it with -all Buddhists that I know personally- pray. How's that? The limited notion of prayer as being merely to some 'other' being divine or otherwise is faulty and limiting. If one is truely liberated from samsara then all these limiting notions about all things should be also liberating and very open. Since one has understood the nature of the mind and attraction/aversion. Thus, people assume prayer is something only done by Christians, or other Monists, but this simply is not the case. I recommend a perusal of this search on Google for Buddhist prayer for some additional notions to maybe help liberate one from their own caginess. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=buddhist+prayer
You see ... placing blame on others for their apparent faults ... God forbid we are at fault for anything because its them that do this to us ... is a clear example of Egoersonality Views:Self:I:Me:My:Mine Far as I can determine, and I have been occupying this section of the universe for about 50 years now this time around, is that I have no reticence in anything. I happen to see that based on the feelings I associate with contact to external eventsbjects:stimulii I am the one who causes my own discomfort. Not you, not them, not others outside myself. If I see something you do that I don't like, or hear something you say that causes me to become angry, or tastes something that taste awful, or experience pain in my legs from sitting too much, then it is I who am experiencing these things. It is I who am being the cause for their discomfort. It is I who am angry because I don't like this or that sight, this or that sound, this or that taste, this or that smell, this or that feeling, this or that thought. No one makes us angry, we cause our own selves to become angry because we dislike (Ill-Will:Anger:Hatred). No one or no thing gives us gratification, we give ourselves gratification (Greed:Lustleasure) because we like what we are experiencing. For you to point out these faults you see in me, is not really my faults. Rather the fault lies in your feelings for the things you experience moment to moment. If there's any irony here, I suppose the irony is not mine, but rather the one who see's things outside their own perception as being ironic. As for lack of integration ... hmmm ... This thread is not the place for you to be asserting your own personality views. Rather it was intended for edification for Yourcrazedpoet's question regarding prayer for which you offered your opinion, at the risk of speaking for me when you shouldn't have and I corrected you for it. Any other conversation not related to this topic should be taken to another thread. As for my opinion on Prayer ... My opinion is such that if you need to pray, then by all means pray. However, again in my opinion, it is not necessary and I choose not to practice such mundane rituals ... HTML: HTML: HTML: HTML:
