Is Jesus God because of (John 8:56-59) ''before Abraham was, I AM''

Jatom
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I think it is the word here not wisdom What does John1:1 really say and mean in Greek?! è (link)
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As you said, if…
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“Manfred Barthel” Substitute “wisdom” for “the Word” (the Greek logos means both) I think he meant that logos means word and wisdom, i.e. host means:
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1- large number of people or things. [Latin hostis enemy, army]
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2- person who receives or entertains another as a guest.
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When I say: I like that host. Well, what did I mean by host here? I was talking about host 1 or 2? So, the same to John 1:1 word or wisdom not the both of them, logos is a greek word right? Which can point to two things wisdom or word, but Jesus talked in which language? Oh, how I forgot thatè these statements were not made by Jesus Christ, nor were they attributed to him by the author of the Gospel according to John. Jesus didn't state this; it isn't written that Jesus said: in the beginning was the ward… etc. Q: it is quite obvious from simply reading the above verse that even in the very best case; this verse speaks only of a "Duality" not a "Trinity." Jesus isn't the wisdom who said that? Did I miss a verse? You know forget it, let's keep discussing John 8
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She, her! However, Proverbs 1:24-28 Proverbs short pithy saying in general use, held to embody a general truth. [Latin proverbium from verbum word]
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Proverbs chapter 1:1è The proverbs of Solomon, son of David, king of Israel: 2: That men may know wisdom and instruction, understand words of insight, 3: receive instruction in wise dealing, righteousness, justice, and equity (RSB)!!! He is talking about wisdom, the common wisdom!!! When I tell you, hey Jatom I like to learn wisdom, I don't meant Jesus!!! But wisdom the general wisdom!!! I think Solomon was talking about that wisdom? It is proverbs! However, for more about John1:1 click hereè What does John1:1 really say and mean in Greek?! let's keep discussing John 8
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Well, I told you my point! And if the true translation should be wisdom, Jesus isn't the wisdom, accordingly John 1:1 "In the beginning was the wisdom, and the wisdom was with God, and the wisdom was God" can not be interpreted to justify a "triune" God. Because Jesus isn't wisdom, and this verse is talking about one God who himself is the wisdom? Who said that Jesus is the wisdom? Again: for more about John1:1 click hereè What does John1:1 really say and mean in Greek?! let's keep discussing John 8
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Peace and love
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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Note: Silly, Irrelevant, and the like, responses, posts, comments will be ignored (it depends on my mood and time if I won't ignore them), taking off the topic is losers' style, ask yourself: will you write such response if the writer wasn't a Muslim!
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Read this, then come talk to me.

 

Jatom​

I prefer you read my recent responses to your posts, first read them fully, then give comments to avoid repeating. I posted many questions.​

Peace and love
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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Note: Silly, Irrelevant, and the like, responses, posts, comments will be ignored (it depends on my mood and time if I won't ignore them), taking off the topic is losers' style, ask yourself: will you write such response if the writer wasn't a Muslim!
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Well I prefer that you first read the article as not only will it give you a solid backround of the "I AM" passage, it also answers much your proposed problems. So instead of me wasting my time answering what already been answered, how about you read the article, then we can go from there? Alright?

 

Jatom​

=( I wrote some new commnets regarding John 8 these comments were done by me, because I noticed things regarding it which I didn't notice it before =( , but I don't mind to read the article my dear brother =)​

so, alright then dude =)​

Peace and love
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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Note: Silly, Irrelevant, and the like, responses, posts, comments will be ignored (it depends on my mood and time if I won't ignore them), taking off the topic is losers' style, ask yourself: will you write such response if the writer wasn't a Muslim!
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Hey Jatom!
I read some parts of the article, I found myself still have the same qestions which I posted some of them in my recent posts I think I need their answers first! and because I have comments on the article, well, I think it is repeated comments??? I don't want to repeat what happenend in my thread [Is God 1 or 3?] !!! read my recent posts and I won't write any responses till you finish, (take your time) I don't know if you read the article yourself, if so, whenever I wrote something and the answer for it is already there just copy it, OK.
Peace and love

Yours Sincerely,​

Cat Stevens​

Note: Silly, Irrelevant, and the like, responses, posts, comments will be ignored (it depends on my mood and time if I won't ignore them), taking off the topic is losers' style, ask yourself: will you write such response if the writer wasn't a Muslim!​

 

BTW Jatom:​

I don't know if you read my recent posts which begin from post # 18, I edited them by making them less and adding new comments, OK, so, check them again if you already did. But I am still editting them, didn't finish yet, I will let you know =) and yeah you can ignore post #21 because it is off topic. Don't read post 28 start from post#18 take your time​

Peace and love

Yours Sincerely,​

Cat Stevens​

Note: Silly, Irrelevant, and the like, responses, posts, comments will be ignored (it depends on my mood and time if I won't ignore them), taking off the topic is losers' style, ask yourself: will you write such response if the writer wasn't a Muslim!​

 

Jatom​

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read my response to this fully then give comments​

1- The Holy Bible Containing the OT and NT, Dr. James Moffatt, John 8:58 and "Jesus said to them, 'I tell you, I existed before Abraham was born'"​

2- (Worldwide English) I already was before Abraham was born.​

3- (NLT) I existed before Abraham was even born!"​

I said:''I AM'' cannot be found in these two versions! Can I say that they translated it to ''I AM'' in some versions to reconcile it with the verse in Exodus?! ​

You said: Both of these versions are paraphrases.​

My wondering​

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You read in the (version info ) regarding NLT è the goal of it is to convey the meaning of the ancient Hebrew and Greek texts as accurately as possible to the modern reader to make it easy to read and understand and that accurately communicates the meaning of the original text.​

I understood the following​

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The NLT and the versions as well are giving the meaning of the verses! What does this mean?​

E.g.1: A was at B once upon a timeè I can write it as follows: A existed at B once upon a time​

E.g.2: Tom is here = here is Tomè can I say here is exited or existed is here? No, because (1) it doesn't make sense (2) I should mention Tom. ​

Accordingly:​

Exodus 3:14:God said to Moses, "I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "​

I AM WHO I AM + I AM are god's names, right?​

Is I AM WHO God's name? No.​

Is WHO I AM God's name? No.​

I AM WHO I AM is God's name?​

Is AMGod's name? No.​

Is I God's name? No.​

I AM is God's name.​

I AM THAT I AMè is one of God's names, God the father has many other names e.g. 'Eloah- 'Adhon, 'Adhonay- Yahweh etc è This kind of God's names is called the ''PERSONAL NAMES OF GOD'', as well I AM THAT I AM is one of his names, I AM THAT I AM, Yahweh,Tsebha'oth , Qanna' etc èThis kind of God's names is called the ''DESCRIPTIVE NAMES OF GOD''Link​

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When I say '' I love God'' = '' I love Yahweh''= '' I love I AM THAT I AM'' the difference between them is I chose different names of his majesty, but the meaning is still the same, so accordingly let's use"Yahweh'' as an example on the above verses:​

Yahweh said to Moses, "Yahweh. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ' Yahweh has sent me to you.' "If I want to paraphrase it I can't say: Yahweh said to Moses, " [I existed] or [I already was]. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ' Yahweh has sent me to you.' "​

!!!! I think you agree with me, don't you? If so, then how do you explain this:​

1- The Holy Bible Containing the OT and NT, Dr. James Moffatt,'I tell you, I existed before Abraham was born'"​

2- (WE) I already was before Abraham was born.​

3- (NLT) I existed before Abraham was even born!"​

You said they are paraphrases? Well, do they (the translators) understood I AM in John 8.58 "Before Abraham came into existence I AM." as existed=be=is, and that Jesus wasn't referring to I AM in Exodus?​

If you believe that Jesus was referring to I AM in Exodus which is the name of God, so Jesus is God, then I wonder: how dare those translators to turn his name to a verb? I AM is one of God's name right?If I want to simply the verses I DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO change God's name to a verb!!!!.​

If NLT and the like versions are accurately communicating the meaning of the original text then Jesus meant by I am= existed= was he wasn't referring to Exodus? “before Abraham was born, I am!”otherwise, this is the utter blasphemy because you turned the name of God to a verb?​

"Before Abraham was born, I AM!" is the same when you say before Abraham was born I existed, if not, I want you to clarify to me something, I said: When I say '' I love God'' = '' I love Yahweh''= '' I love I AM THAT I AM'' accordingly: "before Abraham was born, I AM!" ==>"before Abraham was born, Jesus!" or Jesus , before Abraham was born, !" does it make sense?​

Jesus what before Abraham was born? is this an intact sentence? I AM as a whole is a name right? not just AM????? or I? both of them I AM are one word i.e. make one name ​

****And if he used I AM how did you know that he was referring to Exodus, don't tell me, because he said that he was existed before Abraham was born?​

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According to Islam, my soul, Jesus' soul, all human beings' souls were existed before Abraham was born! Are we all Gods?​

Dr. Bilal Philips: In the Qur‘aan God informed that man existed in the spiritual form before the creation of the physical world. ​

When your Lord gathered all of Aadam’s descendants and made them bear witness for themselves, saying: ‘Am I not your Lord?’ They all replied: Yes indeed, we bear witness. That is what Jesus was talking about I think. ==> befor giving any comments on this please read (one more thing) first***​

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One more thing​

John8.56-57:Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? ​

!!!!! Jesus was saying that Abram saw his day not he (Jesus) saw Abraham? Why did the Jews said hast thou (Jesus) seen Abraham? We find huge faults in these two verses? Jesus said that Abraham saw his day but the Jews said have you saw Abraham! Jesus didn't clarify by saying: no I didn't say that I saw Abraham I said he saw my day! But instead of saying so he Jesus directly answered them!! maybe these verses are additions or inserted verses to write verse 58 to reconcile it with Exodus?, and if these two verses are additions by the hand of men then it goes without saying that verses 58 and 59 are additions as well!!!!!!!!!! If I am wrong then clarify, and thank you before hand. maybe I misunderstood it or missed something.​

we also have to read them in their original texts, refer to what I quoted from jewsforjudaism.com​

 

I am done =)
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take your time​

Peace and love ​

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Yours Sincerely,​

Cat Stevens​

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Note: Silly, Irrelevant, and the like, responses, posts, comments will be ignored (it depends on my mood and time if I won't ignore them), taking off the topic is losers' style, ask yourself: will you write such response if the writer wasn't a Muslim!​

 

Alright, give me a week or so.

 

Dear Jatom​

Yup, my dear brother, take your time =)​

Peace and love ​

Yours Sincerely,​

Cat Stevens​

Note: Silly, Irrelevant, and the like, responses, posts, comments will be ignored (it depends on my mood and time if I won't ignore them), taking off the topic is losers' style, ask yourself: will you write such response if the writer wasn't a Muslim!​

 

catstevens,​

you obviously have a lot to say on this subject. i'd like to discuss it with you, but your posts are just too much for one sitting. why don't we look a this one by one, point by point, and have an intelligent discussion about it, if you want to.​

John 8:56-59 "before Abraham was born, I am" is not the same as "worship me!" The fact that Jesus (pbuh) was present before Abraham (pbuh) is not the same as him saying "worship me!" What then​

With regard to your comparison of "I am" in the verse of Exodus 3:14 with that of John 8:59, please note that in John 9:9, a beggar who was healed by prophet Jesus used these exact same words used by Jesus ("I am") to refer to himself. We read "others said -- `This is he;' and others –​

' He is like to him; ' he himself said,--' I am [he].'"John9:9 /John 9:9(WYC) ​

this is just misunderstood. we all use the words "I am". "I am" writing this post write now. The Jews used "I am". Jesus is not merely using the two words, "I am". This is a direct allusion from the old testiment in the book of Exodus."

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds. (John 8:58-59)

The Jews did not try to stone him just because he used two words, "I am". They knew the Scriptures and knew he was claiming to be God.

 

JLPMGHRS

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Why not, I already did so with other members, as for this thread I gathered other opinions on John 8 and posted mine as well, you can choose one opinion and read it or all of them, it is up to ya, I wrote in post#1​

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No, I think maybe because he claimed to be existed before Abraham,​

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Jesus answered, `I tell you the truth. I already was before Abraham was born.' Read this verse from this version by clicking here;
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Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!"​

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as you see ''I am'' couldn't be found in these two versions and other versions, and you can stone someone to make him leave or stop talking when he refuses to do so or to leave​

*Peace and love* ​

Yours Sincerely,​

Cat Stevens​

 

How many times can you find the title "I AM" in the New Testament, as proof that Jesus IS The Living Word ? You have to be a Christian to have gotten that point or even pondered the thought. Amen!

 

HI Dimensionality ​

you are new here, welcome =)​

I already discuess this (I AM ) thing in depth in several posts for a summary click here​

*Peace and love* ​

Yours Sincerely,​

Cat Stevens​

 

Hi Cat, thanks for the warm welcome. Allah is just another title for God in another language, namely Arabic. That's not a proper name. I just want to point out to you that my Lord and Savior has a PROPER name, which the Jewish nation for some reason or other decided was too holy to pronounce in general public. In order not to offend anyone here who might be Jewish, I will refrain from it as well. If you take the name Allah and translate it back to it's original language, you will find it means god. The English definition for God is very broad. The only people who know His PROPER name are the descendents of the first slaves, the Hebrew children, not necessarily the Jews. A lot of people who claim to be Jews don't even know thier original bloodline any more because they were dispersed among all nations and many Kenites took over and replaced the natural citizens of Jerusalem at different times in history. I've read parts of Qur'an, and, studied other eligions as well, mostly the so called Christian denominations and the religions of the eastern world, some Sanskrit. This always fascinated me...there's SOME truth in everything. That's because God is in everything. No matter what you or I or anyone else believes, facts are still going to remain facts, and truth will still be truth. I don't believe in most of what other so called Christians tell me. That's why I don't attend church houses. And that's all they are to me. Buildings with stained glass windows where people go and pretend to know a higher being once or twice a week, not to mention some of the other things they pretend. In reality we are suppose to worship Him in spirit and in truth. A final thought for you... we may be saved by grace, but we will be judged by works. In other words, at this particular time, it's more important that you live a good life and treat other's well. Whatever you've done unto the least of these you've done unto Him. I have friends from all sorts of backgrounds, beliefs, and, denominations. Matter of fact, I have inlaws who are Muslim. I trust that ALL people will know ALL the truth some day. As long as you're good people, you're my friend. Peace be with you!
Ps..your feline friend is beautiful!

 

Hm, I’ve noticed this interesting phenomenon on these forums. Why are so many Christians distrusting of churches? I'll admit, there are some churches that I wouldn't trust at all, but that doesn't mean that all churches are like that. I think the Bible makes it pretty clear that Christianity is supposed to be community orientated.

 

Dimensionality​

you are more than welcome ​

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Maybe not, check this​

Yes it is, but this is off topic, isn't it? ​

But it wasn't so In other words, God didn't order them to avoid pronouncing His name in general public, isn't our topic anway.​

Wow, My very special Salam and kind regards to them. ​

And with you be peace and love =)​

It belongs to Yusuf =)​

*Peace and love* ​

Yours Sincerely,​

Cat Stevens​