speed up the train and wait for the crash??

i know im going to get alot of shit for this...but thats all fine.

so iv been thinking of who to vote for, and to me bush and kerry follow the same agenda...the history of exchange of power between the 2 parties shows they dont return our freedoms like they promise, but rather continue to take more away. i personally believe amerika is truckin down the track toward certin doom, all empires crumble and this one will be no different.

i want neither of these 2 to run this country...my vote would be to nader if he even had a fighting chance...but i might as well not vote.

or i figure i could vote for bush and help speed the train up and hope its destruction comes soon. there is no way to save amerika now exept for a total destruction followed by a reconstruction of gov. and i figure bush is hated by many...his agenda is straight forward and people are on to his games and getting tired of it. how long do you think bush can continue before our collective concoiusness gets tired of this shit and desided to overthrown our officials? hopefully soon, but judging by this countries apathy and ignorance i doubt it...
how far are they going to bend us before we snap? i dont know...but the more gradual the bend, the farther they can push us before we snap. and this exchange that keeps going back and forth is quite gradual...do you really think much will change if kerry is elected? i dont...so i might as well help speed up the train


...bring on the haters

 

There is a theory that since Kerry really isn't a WHOLE lot different than Bush, that one should vote for Bush just for the benifitial liberal backlash.

Calm down folks, it's just a theory.

 

I think I'd vote for Bush before I'd vote for Kerry - not because I think Bush is anything other than a rat bastard, but because he is so OBVIOUSLY a rat bastard. This jackass's presence in the White House has caused liberals to finally start paying attention to what is going on in the world - if Kerry gets into office, we'll have the "clinton effect" - where progressives go back to sleep and imagine everything is peachy and we're all living under the rule of Gandhi. I'd rather have the blatant warmongering and environmental attacks by Bush than the crap we got under Clinton (or what we'll get from Kerry) - more of the same, but with much nicer rhetoric.

As it is, I cannot bring myself to actually cast a vote for Hitler's reincarnation, so I'll be voting for Nader. At least he's not full of horseshit.

 

same here...i wouldnt feel right voting for bush, but i wouldnt feel right voting for kerry either, so naders got my vote.

i hate the "choices" they give us...its like coke and pepsi, if i dont like one why would i want to drink the other...its the same damn flavor. the choice is an illution.

i also dont know if i really even believe voting means anything...considering how easy it is for those in power to rig the elections, i doubt their honest enough not to just thrown whom ever they want into power.

 

But to think it's only liberals who hate Bush is false. There are actually MANY conservatives who hate Bush just as much - if not more - especially when it comes to the opening of our borders and the destruction of civil liberties via the Patriot Act and "Homeland Security."

You see, Bush is not a conservative, but a neo-conservative (or neo-con). He has taken conservatism and warped it to fit his own sick, twisted ways, and unfortunately, many people are willing to jump right on the bandwagon with him.

I was never a fan of conservatism, mainly because I don't agree with the religious (being an Atheist myself) and moral BS so many conservatives cherish and preach.

But, conservatism hasn't always been as bad as it is now, or viewed the way it is now. Neither has liberalism, or so-called liberalism.

 

Please people, provide examples......for instance, how did Clinton destroy the environment, warmonger, etc.?? The world is sooooo much worse off today than it was in Clinton's 8 yrs. For anyone to belittle what he did in office is sickening. Everything has gone to shit now. War, insanely large national debt, environmental damage, the economy is awful, unemployment is high....etc......oh wait, apparently the rich are doing alright....

Clinton wouldn't have gone to war with Iraq, nor would Kerry!!!!!!!
Get it through your heads!!!! argh.

Please do some reading:

Bush versus the Environment -Robert S. Devine

House of Bush, House of Saud -Craig Unger

 

Clinton is a warmonger, too, as far as I am concerned. Just look at Kosovo.

 

Pressed...you are smart guy which is why that comment baffles me.

Are you serious??

do you have an inkling what was happening in the Baltics? for years and years the Serbians under Milosevich were slaughtering, raping, and pillaging the Ethnic Albanians, Croatians, and Kosovoans.

I take it that you dont know any refugees that fled from the baltics in the early 90s. I knew many. A few were in high school with me. One girl's 12 year old sister was raped by Serbian soldiers. Her uncle was shot and killed infront of his children. It was ethnic cleansing happening over there.

The problems in that area had been going on for decades before Clinton(and the UN) sent troops in to stop the Serbian onslaught.

That was NOT warmongering. That is going in and stopping genocide and bringing a madman to justice. There is still fighting happening in Kosovo, but that was going on long before Clinton and will continue going on until people stop hating one another.

If sending troops to stop Milosevich and the murdering Serbian military was warmongering...then we need more of it...not less.

 

I wonder why only the Serbs were portrayed as the bad guys by the U.S. news media.

 

I thought Clinton was the one who originally said it was ok to drill in Alaska, but Bush was the one who actually did it. Am I mistaken? It was a while ago, so I could very well be wrong.



Kerry and Bush both suck, and they are the only ones getting off. I'm voting for Nader. I've tried so hard to believe that I should vote for Kerry to help "change" things, but nothing will change with Kerry in office. As a matter of fact, it is quite possible that it could get worse. (Read Willow's post above). I'm still voting for Nader just like I did last election and will continue to do until he gets elected, dies, or a "real" candidate emerges. I have tried to be open minded about it, ask others here whom I have contacted, but I have to vote with my heart.

Stupid democrats should have nomiated Kucinich. I'm still not over that.

 

Perhaps you should get it through YOUR head that Kerry has SAID that he would have gone to war with Iraq. HE SAID IT. We think it BECAUSE HE SAID IT. Duh.

As far as Clinton, he waged war on Iraq the entire time he was in office. Read "Iraq Under Seige" - written during the Clinton presidency - and details the constant attacks Iraq endured from the United States, as well as the continuance of the Iraqi sanctions, which were considered a crime against humanity by a majority of US and world human rights organizations.

Clinton also bombed one of the only pharmeceutical factories in Sudan, and never apologized.

In terms of the Kosovo conflict, Clinton attacked just like Bush - without a UN mandate, and with no threat to the US. Further, some historians believe that the US invasion actually did more to accelerate ethnic cleansing than to stop it.

Clinton increased imports of rainforest wood (and products from other endangered ecosystems). The US was and is the largest importer of rainforest wood.

It was Clinton, not a republican, who named China our "most favored nation," which provided one of the largest human rights violators on the planet special trade privileges with the US. This, of course, also led to the loss of thousands of good-paying US production jobs - and started us on the road we are currently walking, where decent-paying American jobs are disappearing right and left. Further, China is now producing massive amounts of pollution in its mission to supply the US with the cheapest plastic crap ever made. Thanks Bill.

Under Clinton, the gap between rich and poor increased.

Under Clinton, funding to the "war on (some) drugs" increased.

Under Clinton, the prison population (most of it fueled by the "war on (some) drugs") increased exponentially. The US currently has the largest prison population of any nation in all of human history.

And on and on. Look, Clinton made everyone FEEL happy. Sure he did. Yay. He also got lucky and presided over the computer geeks getting rich, which made the economy LOOK good even though he was quietly shipping thousands of jobs out of the country. But in terms of the American PLAN - and there IS A PLAN, make no mistake - he didn't deviate from it. Don't be a fool. Vote for someone who isn't full of shit.

 

Shit Willow, you know no politician is honest.

 

Maybe not - all humans are fallible - but Nader sure as hell has a better track record than the rest of them - but he's hardly even a real politician...

 

The most important statement we can make right now is getting Bush out of office, and that can only be done by voting for Kerry. Bottom line.

We had a surplus with Clinton. And jobs. How many people have lost their job since Bush has been in office? Well, I personally know many.
You would consider voting for that neanderthal monkey fundamentalist? Please. Four more yrs. of the damage his administration can do, you want that?
No one president is capable of completely changing the course humans take, but we need to at least move in the right direction.

 

You are missing the point green thumb, Kerry is not moving in a different direction. Don't be so naive to believe what they are telling you. Bush and Kerry are not very different and they would most likely run the country in the same exact way. So what is the point? Why not vote for someone that you at least know wants something different from what we have? Kerry and Bush are just puppets, they aren't the ones really making the decisions, and they like it that way, they aren't in it to make a difference, neither of them. If Nader were in office (which I know he has no chance of winning, and I don't care) he wouldn't stand for that. Like Willow said, he isn't much of a politician, which is exactly what we need running the country.

 

wow those are interesting theories, really puts the whole thing in perspective...

 

That's right, but what exactly did happen to those poor people? From: http://www.mikehersh.com/President_Clinton_Eight_Great_Years.shtml

So what does Willow do when faced with the horror of falling poverty? Simple - just complain about the gap between rich and poor.

That's true, there was no real threat to the US, in fact the only premise they could come up with was preventing the mass murders we waited too long to stop in Bosnia. What kind of bullshit excuse is that, right Willow? And who are we to stop mass murders without UN approval? Damn Americans forcing their ideologies on everyone!

Also I take issue with your "some historians" comment. Well, what are you saying? You agree with them or not? You are saying that after Srebrenica the lesson learned was let Serb armies do as they please, so we don't make things worse? I wonder what you would be saying today if we did nothing to stop a repeat Srebrenica in Kosovo. Hmmm... maybe blaming the US? Just a guess. In fact I wonder what you think about the US not intervening in Rwanda to stop genocide there - well at least we didn't make things worse, right? Or maybe.... just maybe.... you blame the US for not inteventing in Rwanda too!

 

I love you Pointbreak! Thanks for typing that out, I would be too lazy.

Yes, comparing the current war in Iraq to Kosovo is utterly ridiculous. I personally don't think ethic cleansing is a good thing....and what Saddam did happened many years ago, it was no reason to go to war now.

Clinton did a (relatively) wonderful job in office. As governor he balanced Arkansas' budget many times. sigh..the good old days.

We know Bush sucks, why not give the only other viable option (Kerry) a chance?
If you vote for Bush (a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush sadly), you are heartless. You must not know anyone over in Iraq right now.

I think many of you just say Kerry is the same as Bush to let yourselves off the hook, because anyone with a conscience would not vote for Bush or Nader.

 

How would electing Kerry help people in Iraq? He's said he'd send MORE troops to Iraq. He's also said that he would have voted for the illegal invasion even though he now knows there was no threat posed by Iraq whatsoever. How is this an improvement on Bush? Maybe I'm missing something.


As far as Kosovo, the point is not whether something should have been done - the point is that the same people who think it was ok to invade there without a UN mandate complain about Bush invading without a UN mandate. In both cases, the US acted unilaterally and MAY have caused more ethnic cleansing in the end. Not to mention the tons of depleted uranium that were dropped all over that region. It's the same cowboy bullshit.

Clinton presided over the computer-boom economy - THAT is why the economy was good under Clinton - it's not really rocket science. And though Al Gore tried to take credit for the invention of the internet, neither he nor Clinton really did ANYTHING to create the wealth that came out of that industrial boom. Clinton, conversely, increased the number of jobs shipped out of the country by naming China our "most favored nation" and helped create the current situation we find ourselves in with his disgusting support of the "welfare to work" act, which has thrust approximately 2,000 children a month into poverty since it's signing.

 

Oh, you're right, it was all just a coincidence....It can't be that Clinton knew how to balance a budget. Arkansas, the U.S., just a fluke, a stroke of luck.

I think Kerry will be better because-

the rest of the world will not hate him as much as they hate Bush and will be willing to help more

I don't think he will start more unnecessary wars

there are many issues other than the war in Iraq that he will be better at:
-the economy
-the environment
-healthcare
-he won't squlech or rights with a "patriot" act

Laughing willow-
Why are you on my case so much? I'm not the only Kerry supporter here, stop obsessing over what I say, I didn't know Kerry-fans were not welcome here. I'm against war, for the environment, and other things you I'm sure support, yet you treat me like the enemy, it's freaky. I think you've lost the ability to reason, maybe you try too hard to be a radical or something.