Mass Conversions in India to Escape Caste System

from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6050408.stm



Low-caste Hindus adopt new faith


Despite advances, India's lowest Hindu castes remain downtrodden

Thousands of people have been attending mass ceremonies in India at which hundreds of low-caste Hindus converted to Buddhism and Christianity.

The events in the central city of Nagpur are part of a protest against the injustices of India's caste system.

By becoming Buddhists, low-caste Hindus (or Dalits) can escape the prejudice and discrimination they normally face.

The ceremonies mark the 50th anniversary of the adoption of Buddhism by the scholar Bhimrao Ramji Ambedkar.

He was the first prominent Dalit - or Untouchable as they were formerly called - to urge low-caste Indians to embrace Buddhism.

As the chief architect of India's constitution, he wrote anti-discrimination provisions and quota systems into the country's law.

But four-fifths of India's Dalits live in often isolated rural areas, and traditional prejudice has persisted in spite of official laws.

'Cry for dignity'

The Dalits arrived by the truckload at a public park in Nagpur for ceremonies, which began with religious leaders giving fiery speeches against the treatment of lower castes.

Reuters reported that dozens of riot policemen had turned out at the sprawling park.

Albert Lael, of the All India Christian Council, told the BBC that more than 500 people converted to Christianity and more than 1,000 embraced Buddhism.

He said they came from the states of Chattisgarh, Karnataka, Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh and Mahasrashtra.

Joseph D'Souza, the president of the Dalit Freedom Network and a Christian convert, described the conversions as a "celebratory occasion".

"I think it's important to understand that this is a cry for human dignity, it's a cry for human worth," he told the BBC.

He said that Dalits could seek dignity by converting to Christianity, Jainism or Sikhism as well as Buddhism.

Buddhist convert Dhammachari Manidhamma told the BBC that social equality was impossible within Hinduism.

"Buddha's teaching was for the humanity, and Buddha believed in equality.

"And Hindu religion, Hindu teaching is nothing but inequality.

Laws against conversion

Similar mass conversions are taking place this month in many other parts of India.

Several states governed by the Hindu nationalist party, the BJP, have introduced laws to make such conversions more difficult.


Hatred between castes has sometimes sparked massacres.

The states of Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh and Tamil Nadu have all passed laws restricting conversions.

Gujarat has reclassified Buddhism and Jainism as branches of the Hindu religion, in an attempt to prevent conversions away from Hinduism eroding the BJP's bedrock support.

Hinduism teaches that most humans were created from parts of the body of the divinity Purusha.

According to which body parts they were created from, humans fall into four basic castes which define their social standing, who they can marry, and what jobs they can do. But Dalits fall outside this system and are traditionally prevented from doing all but the most menial jobs or even drinking from the same water sources as other castes.

DALIT FACTS
167m people, 16.2% of India's population
Nearly 60% live in Uttar Pradesh, West Bengal, Bihar, Andhra Pradesh, and Tamil Nadu states
The lowest rank in Hindu society, beneath the traditional caste system
Expected to perform the most menial jobs, particularly handling cadavers and human and animal waste
Physical contact with a Dalit was traditionally considered ritually polluting for other castes
Even converts to Christianity and Islam have encountered discrimination from higher-caste converts.

 

Bill...interesting, and I've heard about the same thing though not in such detail.

I guess this isn't the first time in history that mass religious conversion has been used to promise a better quality of life or escape from annihilation to the socially lowest or threatened classes...witness mass conversions of native Americans to Christianity, for one example.

But, as the article noted, how it plays out in reality is a different story. This reminds me of blacks in America...since the 60's civil rights legislation they have indeed gained hugely in basic freedoms and upward-mobility but the old undercurrent of racism is still there and shows up in many ways.

Once again...thank God for Constitutional separation of church and state...if the fundies here ever get that changed America will become like the old USSR...those who convert to Christianity (i.e. join the party) will get preferential job, housing, and allround economic treatment, as well as fare lightly at the hands of law enforcement agencies. Religious minorities will then be relegated to ghettos, with very limited opportunities and civil liberties.

 

Sad thing is, even after conversion they remain downtrodden. The lot of dalits is terrible in India, often winding up being part of guerilla terrorist groups. Such idiotic bigotry has no scriptural sanction at all. The caste system itself is based on Purusha suktam, where it is said that each caste is a part of the viraata purusha.

The brahmins are the head (the teacher class and intelligensia), the khsatriyas are the arms (the government, defense and law enforcement), the vaishyas are the thighs (the business and trading class - the producers), and the shudras are the feet (who bear the weight of all others).

The thing is, in the Hindu tradition, we worship not the head or the hands or the thighs, but the lotus feet of the lord. And without the feet to carry them, where would the rest of the parts go?

Scriptures do not give rise to discrimination. It is later on, some fools decided to play power games and created a class below the 'lowest' caste - which is not seen as low in the vedas, only as being at a different stage of spiritual progress.

In fact the scriptures say that by birth all people are shudras, it is only when the values are inculcated in them and they receive education, then their caste is determined by their ability.

 

What you've described was called the varnasrama-dharma system by Srila Prabhupada...I think he said that in the present kali-yuga almost all persons are born sudras spiritually, even though they may naturally gravitate toward work of one of the three higher castes, and that one may become brahmin in a spiritual sense and remain sudra in an occupational sense, or the other way around.

By observation one can see that even here in America, the great meritocracy, different people are attracted to and have abilities for means of livelihood that roughly correspond to the duties of the four castes, so it seems that the caste or varnasrama-dharma system does reflect nature to a certain degree. We even have our counterparts for untouchables or dalits: those that are in pc terms referred to as the underclass, and in the often-offensive vernacular trms such as white trash, n....r, and other euphemisms for people of below-the-bottom-rung social and occupational status.

 

The item says there are 167 million dalits - it's hard to believe any but a tiny percentage wind up as terrorists. In the case of those that do, it is the fault of the authorities for not reforming the system. People are right in my view not to accept such opression.
I also have a suspicion that the current situation actually suits those of higher caste, and thus there is little pressure for reform from above.

This is an issue which has been a blight on India for a long time. 100 years ago, Vivekananda was saying the caste system should be aboloished. It seems little progress has been made.

Maybe the younger generation in India need to be more critical of traditional culture.

 

The thing though is that this sort of thing rarely happens in cities. The exploitation of poor in the cities is not caste based. It is in villages that these things occur. I believe that as society in India modernizes, it will fade away, as has happened in the cities. Caste distinctions may still be there, but do not lead to oppression and exploitation in any way.

 

I remember the laws against conversion brought into my state. It was totally fair - it outlawed forced conversion, or conversion based on offers of money, housing, etc. I also remember how strongly Muslims and mainly christians opposed this. That is because missionaries, even mother Theresa's people, used food and money to exploit people's hunger to convert them. The last thing they had was their faith and they had even that stripped away, totally debasing them. In my opinion that is nothing short of the most despicable terrorist acts.

Of course, I have no problem with conversions based on faith. But how many who convert out of belief that christ is their lord and savior? The majority of indians who convert do so to get the money that the church lavishes on them.

 

I agree that as India's economic development proceeds, it will become very difficult to keep the caste system going.
But I wonder if really there is any value in it in any way shape or form. Maybe it would be better to adopt something like the US model where everyone is seen as created free and equal. At least then there is an ideal to strive towards, even if it isn't put fully into practice.

I think that it must have a disasterous effect on children to be told 'you are a lower caste person - this is what you can expect from life', and also the reverse - telling children of high caste that they are in some way inately superior must lead to a great deal of arrogance and a false view of their own real worth.

 

It's a pity then that some Hindu organization didn't take care of the poor, but left it to outsiders to do so.
Quite honestly, divisions of religions and so on mean less than nothing to a starving man with a starving family. It's not surprising that many convert just to get bread.

Also - many Hindu teachers of recent times tell us that all religions are one, and are simply paths to the same goal. So really, what difference does it make if a person converts to a religion which will ensure better social treatment?

The sad thing is that actually, India has been through similar things before. After the Moghul invasions many converted to Islam in order to escape caste - in fact in most cases it didn't really help, as it probably doesn't today.

 

@ Bhaskar - With your ass in the US how dare you pontificate
on what route the dalits/lower classes choose to liberate themselves

What right do you have to label the Indian Maoists
working for the poor and oppressed as terrorist guerilla squads ?

If you are so worried about terrorism then do something about the
US government whom you are complictly supporting
by your inaction and continued presence in the US,
and quit complaining about genuine
people who are working for the liberation of
the downtrodden masses.

Anyway for other members of this forum check this video out
to get some idea about what dalits undergo on a regular basis

Warning
Some parts are extremely repulsive !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBxy1R0jitM

160 million people in India are born outside the four castes of the Varna system - the oldest surviving social hierarchy of the world.

They are called the "untouchables"

They thermselves have chosen the name DALITS (broken people).

I think the Hindu's deserve this after all they all believe in Karma
and I would only say that their Karma is catching up with them.

 

I know of no Hindu ashram or monastery that would turn away a hungry person. In fact even most temples that can afford it give out free food. There are plenty of Hindu groups that tend to the poor. Only difference is that most of them do it quitely, without pomp or show or quest for publicity, nor do they use it as a means to suck people into the flock.

Conversion out of belief, out of preference for a religion as a spiritual growth structure is one thing, but conversion for material benefit is extremely debasing to a person, it is not the act of someone with any self respect. And do their lives get significantly better? Not really. Discrimination cannot be ended that easily. Did the blacks who converted to Islam escape racism?

Actually the islam conversions in those days were at swordpoint. Accept Allah or get your head lopped off.

 

Half a hippie, you are very very very quick to judge. I wonder if you live up to your exacting standards yourself. Have you never bought goods that were made in factories manned by underpaid and overworked dalit workers? Are you certain that you don't support this oppression in your life? Have you attained such exalted perfection that none of your actions ever have negative consequences?

 

I know what you mean, but I wonder if the religion of a person who will convert for material gain is really a religion worth having anyway. It can't mean much to them if they will convert so readily.
It's getting harder perhaps in today's world to separate religion on some levels from politics. The Dallitt conversions in my mind are more political than having anything at all to do with spirituality.
You could argue that that is perverting spirituality or religion. But - if the religion hadn't become perverted into the socio/political caste system, the problem wouldn't arise. So one faux pas leads to another.

I doubt that the average Dallitt gains much from such a conversion - but I think at least thay are making a statement.
I should mention that as a memeber of Amnesty International, I've been aware of the level of abuses for some years, and I've even taken part in limited campaigns to seek to raise public awareness and put pressure on the Indian authorities to intervene in particular cases of injustice.

But my feeling is that the problem is a deep seated one. However, it could all change. A century ago, Britain was a class society, with clearly demarked social roles and virtually no mobility between classes. Whilst now I wouldn't go as far as to say its become a class-less society, certainly the situation has changed beyond recognition. Dare I say it? As India develops its new economy, the creation of more wealth will tend to erode the old caste divisions and create a more egalitarian society. But that could just be my western liberal wishful thinking.

 

I'd better add that unfortunately, it took the impact of two world wars to thouroughly 'crack' the British class system. I hope India can do it in some more harmonious way.

 

Well it will change. Instead of "brahmins" discriminating against shudras, it will be a case of rich discriminating against poor. Social injustive is woven into the fabric fo the world. We can do what we can in our limited way to help people, but it is not something that is likely to ever be eradicated.
After all, in the larger scheme of things, it is the forces of karma at play. Of course, that does not mean we can conviniently chalk it up to karma and allow people to suffer - to do so only compounds us in furthering the cycle of bad collective karma.

 

Not always. Consider someone who is starving, along with his little kids. He may be a devout Hindu, but offered the opportunity, may see no way but to convert for the sake of his kids.

 

Anybody who is trying to escape a caste system has my full support.

 

From an American perspective, there's plenty of similarity between the Indian dalit situation and the pre-civil rights era here...no need to detail that.

Regarding change: In the US, following ten years-plus of heavy unrest and activism, it took very strong congressional and presidential action followed by equally strong measures on the parts of the individual states to get the legal structure in place, and a general willingness on the part of the white majority, even in the south, to allow change to take practical effect. It's like 90% of the majority agreed, even if grudgingly on the part of many, that it was time to move on, and there was and still is plenty of residual racism and conflict.

Religion did play a certain part in segregation here, but it was easy for Christian leaders to change their line and start telling people that racism and segregation were wrong all along. Past or present caste-like divisions here were/are more practical...US social status has never been deeply defined by very old religious tradition as it has been in India.

Officially-sanctioned and socially-approved racial segregation may be a thing of the past here, but poverty has not gone away.

What would work to permanently lift these people in India to an acceptable minimum social status and life standard...that's very tough.

A Marxist-style revolution doesn't have a chance in India. The world's economy is global now and there's too much vested interest with the US and other western powers. This has contibuted to a very big upwardly-mobile middle class. The dalits are very much a minority...there aren't enough of them to begin effect a revolution. Marxist states are a thing of the past anyway...a century-long social experiment that didn't work...the oppressed become the oppressors, and the cycle begins anew.

In short, only a deep-seated revolution in national attitude, similar to the across-the-board American attitude shift towards blacks, is going to make a permanent difference for the dalits...and after watching half-a-hippie's video, I don't give that much of a chance of happening anytime soon.

 

Do Hindus in Britian maintain the caste system ?