Mass Conversions in India to Escape Caste System

This convo between you and BBB makes me think of my religion class and the three definitions of religion in which we place and try and understand religion:
Religion as a view of the Sacred
Religion as the state of being grasped by an ultimate concern
and
Religion as a world and a lifeview.

And I have to say I agree with you Bhaskar, that were religions followed in their pure forms than this world would be much better off...it is because of people who misinterpret that there is so much mess and has been throughout history.

 

I am sorry, but religion is not one hundred percent perfect, if it was, then no one following the religion perfectly would suffer, but we see that is not the case. One can follow a scripture 100% but still fail to get enlightened. You may attribute that to man's fallibility but I do not thats right... because religion itself claims if one follows certain rules he will reach enlightenment, see God etc, so it is not his fault that he is following it very strictly.

The fact is this, God is not bound by a religion, he is free and he is 100% perfect. We are using religion as a map back to him, but sometimes maps/guides can be wrong about one's destination or journey , because ultimately they are made by man.

 

I agree with this actually. Personal path to God is very different from religion, there you are only worrying about yourself and God, nothing else... no mediators, no reason to attend any congregation, belong to any tribe... it just requires some personal alone time with yourself and God. You would not care if science calls your God imagination, and you wouldn't care if other "religious" people call science imagination. You would take everything to be meaningless and only find meaning in God... that I think is very different from all these religions that focus on rituals and traditions/symbolism.
I think people focus more on "religion" than on God in most religions and ignorantly believe God wants things like circumcision, caste system, astrology,
differentiation among men and women, killing of animals, not killing of animals... we forget that God is actually aloof to all of these things.

 

Well we certainly would never want to suggest that Indians might actually be converting to Christianity because they examined the evidence and decided its convincing beyond a reasonable doubt.
No.. that just wont do here.
Having said that,
I have to wonder sometimes at the outrageous 'numbers' touted by so many of the 'charismatic' Christian evangelists who boast so many 'gettin saved' at Indian crusades.
Of course, my East Indian friends explain how many of the same people will go and 'try out' whatever evangelists or showmen come to their towns and villages.
Make an altar call and plenty of people will try this peculiar ritual to see what happens heh.
And I dont blame them for doing so, those who are.

But seriously, India has always had a peculiar 'indifference' to Christianity and yet when we see Indian Christians - we see the real deal and mostly more dedicated and enthusiastic than your typical western Christian.
I 'suspect' that we see massive conversions to Christianity happening over the next 10-25 years.
Caste System not withstanding.

 

As far as I'm concerned, that won't do anywhere. If any person who has no other motives other than the spiritual considers the evidence for Christianity, or any particular sectarian faith, "convincing beyond a reasonable doubt", to the exclusion of all other beliefs, I personally consider it good cause to doubt their motives, emotional maturity, or, in extreme cases, their basic emotional stability and sanity.

Life is extremely hard for very many in India, and "getting saved" is a quick fix...no more nasty future lives to worry about and a few free meals.

I don't blame them for doing so either...India has more than its share of cheaters who have perverted Sanatana-dharma...just as America has its vast numbers of opportunistic evangelicals and other cheaters who have perverted the path of Jesus Christ.

If you were well versed in Sanatana-dharma, the ancient spiritual tradition of India, you would understand why India has been historically indifferent to Christianity.

Regarding The Real Deal...my personal conclusion is that God speaks to each sincerely seeking person in the way that is appropriate for them at that particular point in their spiritual life...for some, this may be through Jesus Christ and the Bible, for others, through Krishna and Sanatana-dharma, and so on. It's natural for a person who has experienced a spiritual rebirth to be enthusiastic and dedicated. The test: a person of genuine spiritual perception won't draw sectarian lines, no matter how they arrived at their faith.

Consider the number of persons in the western world, raised as Jews or Christians, who have wholeheartedly and sincerely embraced Eastern faiths and teachings...I challenge you to make a convincing case that the large majority have arrived at this spiritual destination through means other than sincere conviction. Within this challenge is full acknowledgment for those unfortunate seekers who have indeed fallen victim to cheaters who have come to the west from India.

If future mass conversions happen in India, as you predict, we can see that such movements are social phenomena...very few of these conversions will be of spiritual value. It will happen because the majority become convinced that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, that a better material life awaits for those who convert...in other words, it will be a stampede.

 

I agree yes, but I consider myself to be very 'spiritual' as in I view life as a quest to understand myself and the world around me and how to find happiness, yet at the same time i'm agnostic. And yet at the same time I borrow heavily from buddhist teachings and practice meditation. But I ditch all the elements/conecpts within buddhism that require a leap of blind faith...I think if they don't have a solid theory or can't be tested for ourselves then you immediently making that leap from testable to blind faith. I also think at that point you are denying yourself...And I think denying yourself and relying on faith is one of the worst things you could ever do in that quest...I don't undertand why can't people just take the useful parts out of religions, learn from it, then ditch the rest, the stuff that doesn't work or requires blind faith in systems that don't work...Because every religion and idea is imperfect. That is fact. if it wasn't, the world would be 'perfect'...And here lies the problem, no? Everyone has there own idea of 'perfect' taken from something else!

 

And how would you know? Religion being so deeply subjective, you and I are not in a position to judge how perfectly someone has followed a religion. External conduct is the closest we have th go by, which is not always indicative of a person's true inner condition.

No, they are made by the enlightened oens. Enlightened beings can never be bound by the fallibility of man. If you say the enlightened are fallible, then enluightenment itself loses all meaning.

 

You certainly made it clear your faith is exclusive now didnt you spook.
Either we go with your belief system that everything is 'a way' or else your wrong, suspicious and immature.
No.

Look, Indians are very capable of reviewing the Gospel and NT, taking the time to consider, examine and test the claims of Christ.
They can practice those claims and mature in their understanding.
This happens.
My personaly experience has been that Christian Indians tend to do very well in Christianity, growing in grace and finding reason for the faith that lay within them,

Of course, we all know there are 'scam artists' in anything.
We send them 'Benny Hinn' and these types,
They send us Deepak Chopra.
and,
Unfortunately there is enough unwitting types of people in every nation, to keep these guys afloat.

 

Well, I've personally arrived at a universalist spiritual viewpoint, in the process rejecting the position that persons who don't accept the tenets of a particular sectarian faith are incapable of having a relationship with God and are damned to hell. I am opinionated....I consider those who teach this attitude to others as truth to be wrong and guilty of perpetuating ignorance.

If that's your experience, I accept what you're saying...I'm not blanket-dissing Christianity, just religious exclusivism.

I don't know anything about Deepak Chopra other than the name, but you're clear on this...agree.

 

ElProximo is right that there are plenty of very wonderful Indian Christians, no doubt. Usually these are second or third generation christians, though, not ones who have converted themselves. This is my experience of 22 years in India.

 

I've never been there, but through my reading and other study am aware that there is a longstanding and solid Christian minority in India, and have no doubt that this is grounded in sincere and tested faith.

I do believe that mass conversions of the type that El Proximo predicts will be more of a social revolution than a spiritual one...if that's what it takes to topple the abuses of a degraded varnasrama or caste system, well, that's what'll happen. A mass defection to Christianity by India's socially-disenfranchised won't change eternal truths, but will be proof enough that the current social and religious system has failed them in a big way.

 

No , there are ways to know whether some one is enlightened or not, you will know, you will feel it in their presence... they are not bound like we are, they do not suffer and we know this from bhagavad gita. Now, you and me are not enlightened, therefore we suffer, we fight, disagree and have lots of problems in life.

I think our definitions of who or what the enlightened beings are is a bit mixed up...
According to what I know, enlightened beings are "enlightened" because they know the truth about their own existence, that makes them free of suffering that comes with this material existence. however, that does not make them infallible. Bhaskar, as long as one is in this body , he is subjected to its limitations. It is true that jivan muktas & us are all living in bags flesh and blood, but the difference is that they realize their freedom from suffering, but we have not done that. This means that Jivan mukta can make a mistake but he is not worried, because he knows the truth (he knows what truly matters or what he should truly know in his life). On the other hand, we (unenlightened beings) make mistakes and suffer, because we don't know the reason for our lives or the reality behind this existence. I am sorry but you can ask any swamiji/holyman/priest , I am sure they will say that enlightened individuals are not free from fallibility that comes with the human condition, they are only free of the suffering associated with it.

According to vaishnavas , this is also a difference between souls and the Supersoul. Living entities are fallible and God is infallible, this makes the living entities subordinate to Him. It is also the reason why it is better to surrender to him and give him control of our lives than try to reach the truth by ourselves... because we are fallible we might do something thats completely opposite to what we really need. This fallibility is also seen in our "religions".

 

Yes, that is the sad state of affairs. Somehow I feel like we try to force God into our systems and beliefs, he complies because he is compassionate to our needs. He is like the father who plays his child's little game along with him to teach him something... but really its just a play nothing more... no religion is "right" and no religion is "wrong" either.

Another analogy would be...
A preschooler may learn her rhymes (you know- baba black sheep, mary had a little lamb) , and those rhymes teach her something about the english language, however that does not mean that other things in the english language (those that are not rhymes) are somehow wrong... neither does it mean that one rhyme is superior /inferior to the other rhyme. The eternal truths about the language are not affected by these little things. Nor do these truths have an obligation to answer to the ignorance of the preschoolers who learn their rhymes.

 

Jedi: Yes, Hinduism and Christianity are both sectarian faiths, and say the same thing but in different terms, each placing emphasis in different areas...


The point is that as the absolute truth, sanatana-dharma will never change, whatever the external trappings may be.

If a mass conversion to Christianity is the social revolution that will somehow help break the caste system's hold on the very poor of India, then it would a positive thing...I hope it it doesn't produce a thundering horde of evangelical bible-thumpers, though. :uhoh2:

 

I completely disagree, and so do plenty of mahatmas I have listened to. It is in fact impossible to tell if one is enlightened or not, unless you yourself are enlightened.

Yes, you may feel it, deeply be moved by someone, but that is not always a true indicator. How many thousands have been conned thus by bogus gurus?

Someone asked my Guru if he was enlightened. His reply was, "No."

That man went home smug and self-satisfied. Others were heartbroken. And yet others went home in deep thought, allowing the masters words to take root in their mind and grow, and then that dimunitive 'no' blossomed into an inspiritng and beautiful 'know.'

It takes one to know one.

What is enlightenment? Upanishads say that enlightenment is the firm abidance in the mahavakyartha - the oneness with Brahman. And what is Bramhan? Satyam, jnanam, anantam bramha (taittiryopanishad) - Truth, knowledge and infinity in Brahman. Thus one who abides in his bramhaswaroopa is abiding in being one with knowledge itself. And such a one who experiences himself in all beings (In every direction I see only a carnival of me, I am in everybody and everybody is in me. - Kabirdasji), indeed all the universe, has the holistic view, has access to the total mind, and is therefore proof from errors.

And forget scriptures. I have seen such living excellence with my own eyes. I have lived in the company of more than one such saint for many years, and had ample opportunity of observing them.

For me that is sufficient.

 

you are very lucky, bhaskar.... sometimes all you have is the scripture to push you in the right direction..far off gurus in books.....and the light that is hidden deep within you that you are searching for....

 

I am neither deserving nor lucky, it is simply the compassion and grace of the Master.

 

So what about what Krishna says in BG about the symptoms of one who practices yoga?

Ok agreed.

I don't get it, if you say brahman is realized by him (enlightened individual), then there is no "him" is there? Then how can that ego get the access to the collective mind?- when the thing getting access does not exist. I sincerely want to know, now if an enlightened individual is alive, then he is termed jivan mukta right? if that is so, then 'he' although playing the role of some individual knows that "that individual" does not exist and only brahman does. Now if that indivdual has to carry out an action as that individual, then it is not possible for him to get to the collective mind because he is acting as that individual. Therefore, all his actions have to be limited by the physics of that body. It is not possible to know everything. Therefore, there is a possibility that he may be wrong sometimes.

 

They are for self evaluation ,it is not for rating others. If you read those parts carefully, they are NOT things you can actually identify in others.

These are the limitations of language and you are getting twisted in them. Would it appease you to say that it is in fact brahman, with the use of the cosmic mind acting through that particular body without any obstruction of maya.
Personally I have no use for such intellectual masturbation. Know. That is all.

 

And then DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Otherwise it's just transcendental masturbation.