What do u prefer

WHY did you see what I said as an attack. If you had a good real reason not to breastfeed (and there are REAL reasons not to, but they are rare) you would NOT have taken my strong post as a attack at all. Only if you felt you might have made a poor decision would you have seen my post as an attack.

I've done Twenty YEARS research on this procedure. If you HAD done more than a few minutes of research, instead of Status Quo acceptance, you would not have come to any of the conclusion or "choices" you made concerning your child. Rude? Maybe, I care more about children's bodies and feelings than parents who are flip about mutilation. Sorry if that "offends" you. THAT is my perrogative.

I don't have a fucking horse, just a lot of experience with children........and people who make excuses for going along, mindlessly with convention, and then defending any PROOF that their choices were maybe, not the best interest of the child.

Someone who had a "gel"type only anesthesia circumcision as a teenager conpared it to your nail being ripped out of the nail bed, with no anesthesia. Seeing as the Foreskin is as firmly attached to a NEWBORN'S penis as firmly as your nail is attached to your finger, (and somewhere between the age of two and early teenagerhood, the foreskin becomes retractable) THINK about what that pain is like. LOOK at a CircRestraint Board, VIEW the video Minka Jane linked to. Then, look at a innocent baby and ask youself, "Is this really in my baby's best interests? To chop him up, just so he can "look like daddy."

As for the "look like daddy" thing. My dh said the same thing. I made the point that I have a C, sometimes D cup breast size. My MOTHER is a double A. Should I have had breast reduction surgery, at the age of 12, for no other reason that "I would look just like mommy?" AND should that surgery have been done with nothing more than a little Anbesol rubbed on my breast?

That, and showing my dh some videos from The "Nurses Againsst Circ" group, he realized his Status Quo ideas were not best for our boy.

Our boy thanks us.

 

Making a decision, without the consent of the child, to chop off more than half of the skin on his penis IS a "parenting style."

I just have NO understanding of people who make ludicrous, Status Quo "decisoins" which are KNOWN to harm children, based on nothing more than "My parents did it and I'm fine." on a board like this one, and then get upset if people who know a hell of a lot more about the subject than they do disagree with them.

As for "hippies" Valor obviously has no understanding of the idea that STANDING UP FOR THE OPPRESSED is more of a hippy Value than simply agreeing with everybody. Do you think Hippys do nothing but sit around and get stoned and say "Whatever you want is cool, dude." No, the entire Hippy Lifestyle is based on looking at the Status Quo and questioning it, confronting it, and strongly disagreeing with it, IF it makes NO sense. I suggest you read Skip Stone's book to see what REAL Hippy means.

Disagreeing with people who go along with convention, without really investingaing WHY they agree with convention, is what this board is based on.

 

come now Maggie, you know that's not true... it's like rubbing salt into an open wound when someone makes nasty or rude remarks regarding something you're already sensitive about.

 

hon. all I am saying was the comments I made should not have upset a person who were completely at ease with the decisions they made. The comment meant "your response told me you maybe don't feel comfortable as you say about your decisions."

I have made PLENTY od decisions that many people don't agree with. I don't get upset whem people "insult" things I KNOW I was right about. People have tried to "insult" me for admitting I have nursed children into toddlerhood, NOW, if I though that was not a good decision, I may have gotten upset about the comments. However, I know, despite many people's feelings to the contrary, that that decision was right. IF I thought my decision was wrong, I would have felt the "insult" was really an "Insult" not just a commnet.

Nothing to do with salt in anyone's wounds. I don't see eyezofanangel as being "wounded" at all. Neither does she, if her comments are her true feelings.

Besides she admitted in an other post

So, it was a CHOICE, on her part, not her baby's.

ANd, obviously, she simply started THIS thread to carry on her commentary from the Men's Issues Forum about the same subject, where she told an other member he had an "ugly, smelly penis." And I'm rude?
here:http://hipforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2934476&postcount=66

 

Why can't this thread be turned into a discussion about abortion but it can be turned into a discussion of your breast feeding opinions. I believe it was you who stated "stay on topic". Take you own advice and let it drop or at least let others make their off topic points.

I actually am in between. I was circ. but only had half the skin removed they normally would. Why, I don't know but my glans remain covered. I don't see circumcision as being as dire as some have stated here but it isn't necessary either. It has to come down to each parent to decide. Some will agree, some will not, much like abortion. Female genital circumcision is truely a different thing. By removing the clit they are reducing sexual gratification and that is why they are doing it. It is a practace designed to remove female desire. Removing foreskin can not be compared with removing sexual function IMO. I am all for people making their own decisions. Having an opinion one way or the other is fine but the uncirc. side should tone down the insults. I feel the same about the Breast Feed or its child abuse argument. What ever happened to people believing in freedom of choice. Don't tell me as parents you don't make decisions effecting your kids all the time based on your own beliefs. Everyone does. Thinking that you know you are right is one thing but be-littling those that don't agree is just pointless. Make your points, back them up with data that is not coming from anti or pro sites. Very few of you have even posted up something that was not designed to prove their side of the argument(biased). Lets see the real un-biased data if it exists.

 

funny, my bf was the same, only partially circumsized. *shrugs*

Really I have no major preference. The increased lubrication associated with uncirc'ed is nice, but only applicable when not wearing a condom which doesn't really happen with me involved very often

 

I have not meet to many others. Not sure if my doctor got a little conservative doing mine or what. Oh well, life goes on.

 

Loose circumcisions are much more common now than the tight ones, because it reduces the risk of not having sufficient skin for an erection or having a buried penis. The Plastibell method is also being used more often, which gives a looser result than the Gomco clamp.


Here are examples of different amounts of coverage, with both intact and circumcised penises.

I hope nobody thinks I'm attacking or being snarky. Just trying to share info I think is relevant to the discussion.

 

I think you'll find that most people on a hippy forum are going to be against removing body parts from their babies, especially for purely aesthetical reasons (ie. I like how it looks better). A hippy dad isn't going to give his teenage daughter breast implants because he prefers big breasts on a woman, so why circ your son even if you prefer a man's uncircumcised penis?

I wouldn't bind my daughter's feet or stretch her neck because it is a cultural norm, or because my feet are small and I want her to look like mommy. Hippies just aren't much into the status quo.

My husband is intact, a decision made by his mother who is a neonatal nurse practictioner. He has never had a UTI, a STD, an infection of the foreskin or penis of any kind. He also lasts plenty long in bed. As far as smell or inection, it is possible to teach a person hygiene. I have never noticed a bad smell from his penis. If his mother thought there was a real medical reason for a circumcision you can bet she would have had one done on him.

It seems that for the OP's posts in this forum and the other one she's posted in that for her male circumcision is about looks and female preference rather than the slight possible (and debatable) benefits of circumcision. I try not to be so vain about people's bodies, and let my vanity affect my children in such a way.

 

Lets say your kid was born with a very big mole on their face. There is a remote possiblity it could develop into cancer. It would probably just be more atheistically pleasing. Would you have it removed?

 

If a doctor had a real concern about cancer that would definitely be something for me to consider seriously. Most doctors, however, will have it watched for growth or changes in shape/color before suggesting removal. I had one on my leg I was born with that was removed after change in shape and color and some growth when I was 15. I was also involved in that decision.

A parent's concern about not looking like daddy or it being smelly is not enough for me to remove something that is a natural part of my son's body. The kid can take a bath instead.

 

All the "hippies" I know have a deep respect for the natural human body and would never consciously decide to circumcise their sons. It's an absurd practice.

 

You're right; I didn't think to specify that I was talking about male circumcision.

 

i hope those who claim that a simple bath can make up for the less hygenic uncirced penis remember that a large portion of the world does not have running water. Many bathe in contamined waterways that will only fester in the foreskin of a penis. We in this country are very lucky because we are 1) probably the most hygenic people on earth and 2) have access to items that allow us to be completely hygenic.

Just because an uncirced penis can be kept as healthy as a circed penis in America does not mean that 1) a person WILL keep clean their penis(how many guys wipe their penis after they urinate? ) or 2) that everyone outside the western world CAN keep it clean.

We have to remember to think outside our own little cultural/societal box when we think about issues. While circumcision may not be best for YOUR son...that does not mean it is not best for someone elses son. I dont think the pro circ want everyone to be circumcised, just that their wishes are respected. It is a very pro choice position.

p.s. circed children are not oppressed. Blacks in 1850s america were oppressed. Falun Gong members in China are oppressed. Blacks in South Africa were oppressed. Children who are circumcised are NOT oppressed. That's about as silly a statement as one can make.

 

but this thread is in reference to what we do to OUR children. Not in third world countries!

You're going to justify MGM by a third world argument? Give me a break!

 

No. This thread is about 'what type of penis do you prefer.' It has since morphed into a discussion about whether circumsion is ethical, breastfeeding, oppression and i'm sure a few other things that i've missed.

Don't sweep my arguments to the side because your only argument is "but the baby can't consent" or make unproven claims(heart problems caused by crying from circumcision...).

Try and be open and see that perhaps there MAY be benefits to circumcision. That doesn't mean every boy needs to be cut! It just means that there may be benefits. At least be honest and say that the science goes bothways. It is hardly a clear cut decision one way or the other on whether there are benefits.

 

Girls don't have access to clean water in some Third World countries either. Should we circumcise them so they can take advantage of the same "benefits" the males get?

 

i am not aware of what if any benefits there are to female circumcision(any of its types).

But there goes the anti-circ side relying on sensationalism instead of science.

Sounds too fundie for my tastes, personally.

p.s. at least find some scientific studying saying those benefits are shared by women. Then ask the question. Dont ask the question and expect us to know if those same benefits apply to women.

 

You're right. You don't know of any medical benefit to FGM because it was never popular in this country, so no one is creating bogus scientific studies defending it.

 

Like I've said, if there were a real medical reason to cut body parts off my son I would consider the procedure. Fortunately, we have a bathtub and running water in our house so the third world justification doesn't apply. Not to mention the studies, research, and claims are sketchy and debatable. While he is a baby I have no problem keeping him clean myself. When older if my son wants to skimp on personal hygine then he'll just have to put up with the smelly body parts. Penises aren't the only thing that can get smelly or infected if not kept clean. I won't pull his teeth just in case he doesn't want to brush them when he gets older, and I wont cut foreskin just in case he doesn't want to wash himself.

As far as "benefits" of female circ'ing the peopaganda is similar to that of males. In areas or religions that FGM is common they claim similar benefits: