man is the master of everything and decides everything

I agree, and when someone says the universe depends on human observation to exist, or that humans can control everything, like nature, etc., I see that as a bit of specio-centric vanity showing.
I agree with Chief Seattle,
‘Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.

Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves.

All things are bound together. All things connect.’

Chief Seattle

 

But given that there is no landscape in Britain that is truly natural anymore - it is all the handywork of humans now and so is its economy and its social life - also the way that nature is percieved is from a human perspective
Like Sartre said "there is no 'non human' universe"
the universe is necessarily a human construct since you are human

 

‘All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts we make our world.’ Buddha

‘Do you want to improve the world. I don’t think it can be done. The world is sacred: it can’t be improved.’ Lao Tzu

 

Yeah thats good !

 

That's not necessarily true.

Is there any way to prove a reality outside of the human experience?
Is there any way to prove a reality outside of individual experience?

If a tree falls in the woods....

 

Thats what I said as well !
Thats precisely what sartre meant too !
and probably a lot of eastern religions

 

I don’t think man is even the master of his own mind. We are slaves to our own weaknesses that will most likely cause the destruction of civilization. On top of that, we are at the mercy of Mother Nature, who’s not very happy with us.

 

If we all just tried to master our own minds, and let others do the same, we would be far better off. As for mother nature... I think we are going to get a spanking for being so naughty. She doesn't want to spank us, but it is getting to the point that it must be done anyways.

 

i agree reality requires no human observer to exist but....

im gonna have to think on that last part....

 

Depends on definitions

Occam defines reality as
"The 'arena' that must be to allow phenomena to exist"

So, if we take the quote given by bg13
"All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts we make our world.’ Buddha"
And say "thoughts are phenomena" which they are.
Then the arena of 'reality' that allows structure and causality,
must exist [1st] to allow the phenomena of thought.

Occam

 

the reason it is not true is not because there is one god, no god, or zillions of them, but becuase we are no more nor less then one part of the web of life on one world in a very big universe, in which our one little planet, however huge to our individual selves, is but one grain of sand on a very large beach of an unimmaginably bigger ocean, and of which there may even be other oceans.

no one is "the decider of everything", in principal not even an omnescient god would be, once it had granted to life forms, such as our own, the sentience that enables us to ask that question.

we cannot be deciders of things we have no immagination of their even possible existence. add to that a simple observation of probablility that what we know and even immagine being only the tineyest fraction of what is likely to exist.

=^^=
.../\...

 

ALso a very large part of what humans consider important.
Do not actually exist as 'real' things in themselves.
But as interactions/agreements between few or many.

Love courage nations corporations beauty trust democracy
religion quality fear empires science socialism ambition
philosophy ect ect

Occam

 

Great discussion guys.

My own thoughts are that for each of us there are two realities (or "everything"s). There is reality as it physically exists (rocks, stars, space, time, etc), and the reality that we create for ourselves (perceptions, thoughts, morality, etc).

I believe that we are masters of the second. Despite the fact that we don't have total control over what influences we may encounter, it is for the most part within our power to control how we percieve and react to these influences.

However, man cannot be the master of physical reality. Man isn't "superior" to bugs or plants or animals. He is just more powerful, therefore he has more influence. There is no universal sense of "importance." Reality doesn't care whether you step on a bug, as it will continue to exist either way.

So I guess what I'm saying is man is only master of himself, though not without outside influences; but man himself is only an influence on the universe.