Maybe I am just reading too much Andrea Dworiak, or maybe I've just been the brunt of shame and humiliation and exploitation and abuse one too many times ... but right now, at this moment, I don't care if I ever have sex again. Not for moral reasons -- certainly not! I am not a Christian or a conservative; I don't think it is sinful for women to want sex, or anything else ridiculous like that. Goodness knows I have personally found pleasure in it ... the problem is that the enjoyment has turned me into, or been used to turn me into, a tool, a doll, a nobody. (My poet lover once described the progression : "[Girls] go from being somebodies, to being best buddies, to being fuck buddies ... to being no-bodies.") I have always been pretty liberal ... but being fucked has always made me feel terrible in the morning (if not later that same night). I wish now I had held onto my virginity, like Joan of Arc; I wish I had never agreed to play the game, because as I stand I feel I will always lose. Experience has taught me that sex is used to degrade, debase, dehumanize -- it is used as an excuse to make me into an object, to be played with and disposed of at will. And I am not going to put up with it again. But that's also part of my problem ... abstinence is going to be hard for me, because 1.) I am an optimist and want to believe sex can be spiritual and powerful, and 2.) frankly, I tend to cave in a lot just to make people happy. I don't feel a man will ever be patient enough to stay with me, even as a friend, if I do not "put out" ... and again, this has been demonstrated time and again. (Please do not reply that "anyone worth their salt will wait" ... because I have known a few people who were worth a lot of salt and they had no patience either. ) I do not want to be frigid ... I don't want to be uptight and un-fun. I am not "anti-sex." I just do not want to be made into something to be possessed ... and the only way I can hold onto my equality is to stop playing the game. Any thoughts? (I'd love to hear someone agree with me ... )
I see what you are saying. Get out of the game for awhile, maybe it will help you. The majority of people in this world really only care about themselves. Don't give up all together though because there are still a few out there that will put someone else above their own needs. You don't come across them often though.
just be picky with your guys. And when you do sexual stuff, dont do that stuff that makes you feel worthless. I always feel powerful and dominant during a BJ, so for a girl dont do it if it makes you feel insignificant.
I don't really know how I could have avoided dehumanization ... I don't know what to do otherwise. Any sexual situation I have ever been in, even consentually, has ended in rejection ... three of the four people I have slept with, have since pretended I do not exist (literally -- they pretend as though they cannot see me when I pass by, and cannot hear me when I speak to them), and the fourth is constantly angry at me. And it's not as though I have "done anything wrong," except been inexperienced and (once) a little afraid. I have never purposefully caused hurt. But I get rejected, objectified, because I "don't quite do it right." What else can I do ... ? Sex equals humiliation for me. But at the same time I am a human being and sexual. Whenever I enter into a relationship I feel obligated to "put out", and sometimes I even WANT to ... but as soon as I do, the relationship is over, and I even cease to exist in the other person's eyes. The only thing I could really "DO" is learn to be the most amazing lover anyone has ever had ... but that would just be a capitualization and a concession, and the other person would keep coming back for the sole reason of "getting something" -- in other words, I would still be an object rather than a person. How can I compromise -- have a sex life and still be a living human being, not a thing? I am rather convinced at this point that it is not possible -- and that outrages and hurts me the way a bucket of scalding water thrown on my bare skin would. I am a young, human person, and I do not want to be frigid, I want to give of myself ... I just don't want to be TAKEN for granted. And in sexual relationships that is not a possible equation.
Sorry to be so old-fashioned, but I really think that sex ought to be pretty much inseparable from love. If a guy really loves you, he wants you to be happy, and even puts your pleasure and happiness before his. Guys that love their girls (and vice-versa) don't use them, or think of them as toys or objects or things to be used and disposed of. To me, that's pretty much it in a nutshell.
DQ, I like your outlook. I don't think it's old-fashioned though ... I don't think it has EVER been in fashion at ALL! In the Middle Ages, marriage -- monogamy -- was valued in Western culture because the Christian church condemned pleasure, and also because patriarchal societies (largely tied to religion) viewed single women as threatening. (Remember the Inquisition? The witch hunts? In those times, a person like me would have been burned at the stake.) In Victorian and Freudian times, sex became clinicalized, and of course seen as inappropriate outside of the confines of marriage ... people who enjoyed it were seen as inappropriate if not insane. In modern times, opinions seem polarized between monogamists (generally moral/religious types who still demonize sexual relationships) and polyamourists (who think everyone who doesn't "do it" is a repressed prude, and who largely mock the idea of love as being "too confining"). At least, that has been my experience ... hence a young person like me seems to be limited to people who either want to trap her, or who want to exploit her. Nowhere in either equation is true and honest love, and in both equations an independent or egalitarian woman is stigmatized as a threat to be feared, conquered, and destroyed -- or else exiled, as I have been. Is love even possible in a human sexual relationship? The boy I loved (and yes, I REALLY DID LOVE HIM, please do not argue me about that ... I know myself and I know my emotions ...) seemed to be a generous lover -- until he found out I was too inexperienced to give him as much pleasure as he wanted, so rather than try to help, he rejected me for someone better. I'm not looking for my "forever partner" (though if I accidentally find such a person, I'll go for it of course ) ... right now I'm just looking for a companion. I have nothing against sex with someone who will not be with me forever ... but it seems that both the act and the denial of the act destroys any relationship at all. So what am I to do? Or anyone, for that matter?
Well, you pose some very interesting questions, and you're certainly intelligent enough to discuss them with, I can see that. For one thing, I've got a degree in history, and while there's a small amount of truth to what you've said about Medieval Christian culture, that's really about it-a small amount. Medieval Christianity actually was quite romantic, and glorified love between man and woman in art, poetry and song. I'm actually a fairly religious person myself, and I just don't see any polarization between people that demonize sex and people that throw all caution to the wind. Sex is something beautiful-it's just a matter of what you do with it. I know some real religious people and I don't know anyone who thinks that sex is dirty or that women are property. In fact, just exactly the opposite. St.Thomas Aquinas said, 'love is about desiring the same good that you have for someone else, and then putting it into practice.' The whole business of Christian love is supposed to be on that level-people caring about themselves first and then desiring that good for somone else. There really are people that live that way-I'm one of them. And I know a lot of other people that do, too, and they're not necessarily all that religious. But, you know, you have to really care about yourself, see yourself as something really valuable. If you don't, you may feel like you really don't deserve to be treated any better than you are now.... Love is definitely possible. I've experienced it myself. I wish it had lasted forever, and it broke my heart when it didn't, but it's certainly possible. I'm not saying that real love is around every corner-it's not. It's a rough world out there, but real love is still definitely possible. I can really understand the experiences you've had where you've been in situations where guys just want to use you and exploit you and so forth. There are a lot of guys out there that are like that. But there are also a lot of guys that will really care about you and put you first and get a lot of joy from making you happy. Just read a lot of the posts in this forum. There are a lot of guys that say that they would rather do something to make their girl happy, sexually and otherwise, than to be on the receiving end, guys with big hearts, unselfish guys. I'm that way, too. But it seems like you're kind of gravitating towards the wrong kind of guy, and then assuming that type of guy is all there is that's out there. It's not. I think you're kind of in the wrong places and around the wrong people. You probably need a real change of scenery. I sure hope you find it.
Thanks again, DQ ... I didn't mean to offend you or anybody. (I've spoken to a LOT of Christians ... was raised as one myself, actually ... and the above summarization of their viewpoint -- that sex is not supposed to be pleasurable and those who engage in it simply for enjoyment are not sane -- is more or less a direct quote! The rest of my hypothesis was gleaned from information in books, or inference from direct experience, etc.) I believe wholeheartedly in the concept of love. I never did, until I felt it ... (and yes, I did feel it, and don't want to explain how I knew ...) and yet sex destroyed it. (After we were together for the first time, he decided we did not have enough chemistry and left me for another girl, and I was so ashamed that I could no longer look at him much less at myself in the mirror.) And of course it has destroyed several of my friendships, even with good guys ... yet on the flip side, the LACK of it has ruined friendships with EVEN BETTER guys. So I am literally damned if I do and damned if I don't! You can probably infer from my above statement that I also believe in nice guys. I do tend to be attracted to the wounded ones, the ones who could never completely love me in return ... but then again I am afraid of being completely loved! (I'm only 19!) Mostly I am worried that there is something fundamentally wrong with either me as a person, or with the sexual act (or maybe both) that would ruin any relationship, no matter how big-hearted the other partner was.
Well, I'm sure that you didn't mean to insult anyone, and that you really did have these experiences with Christians and their attitudes towards sex. However, the type of Christianity that I've been exposed to sees things quite differently than that. What you're describing sounds like an American brand of Puritanical Protestantism. Even if you believe that there are clear-cut areas of right and wrong in the area of sex, to say that sex wasn't intended to be pleasurable is just philosophical and theological nonsense. I'm really glad I wasn't brought up in an environment where I was expected to believe that. I'm sure I would have turned out differently if I had been. The bride in the Song of Solomon in the Bible came from the town my Lebanese ancestors lived in. Middle Eastern and Western European Christian culture was actually very romantic in its outlook, and still is where Puritanical Protestantism didn't have an influence on it. If you told a Middle Eastern Christian that sex wasn't intended to be pleasurable, he would probably crack a rib laughing (or he might even crack one of yours!). I mean, why would God have designed sex the way He did if He didin't intend it to be enjoyable? The answer is pretty obvious. The whole Song of Solomon is a beautiful, erotic dialogue between the bride and bridegroom, exalting erotic and romantic love between a man and a woman. I mean, if you're a Christian, you believe that was inspired by God, right? Like, duh? Why would God inspire something like that if He intended it to be seen as ugly? It's a good thing that you still believe in the concept of love. A lot of people have given up on it. I think that's really sad. Not to say that I haven't been tempted to a few times, but I have some real deep-seated reasons for not doing it..... Now, I'd never tell you that what you felt wasn't love. But on the other end, if a guy leaves you because he didn't think you had enough 'chemistry', then he sureinthehell didn't love you. You're absolutley right-sex can destroy a relationship, because it isn't being engaged in for the right reasons, but it can also complete a relationship and make it a lot more beautiful. It sounds like most of the guys you've been with have just used it as a tool to manipulate you, get what they wanted out of you, and then hit the road. Again, at the expense of sounding too old-fashioned, when sex is divorced from love, and love where there's at least the intention of it being permanent, then it can degenerate pretty quickly into one person or both using the other primarily for their own pleasure until they hit the door and start looking for somebody else. You know, you're real honest-I don't know exactly why you're attracted to the 'wounded' types of guys. But even though you're afraid of being loved completely (maybe that's why you gravitate toward guys that you know won't anyway)-that's exactly what you need! (to be loved completely, that is). In fact, that's what everybody needs! (Even if it might not be what they want!) The trick is to care enough about yourself and to believe that you really deserve that, and to give your love to somebody that really deserves it, too. And there's nothing fundamentally wrong with you as a person-it's just the way you've been looking at certain aspects of life that have got you thinking there is. And there isn't anything wrong with the sexual act either. It's just that people are misusuing it and other people so much today that sometimes it seems that way. If two people really have big hearts (it has to be a mutual thing) sex can really be something beautiful. I know, because I've experienced it myself.
Fortunately, I never DID believe it. Which is why I HAVE turned out this way The Christians in my experience claim that sex is ONLY supposed to be about procreation, and that pleasure is just a byproduct. Sort of like God is bribing people to make more babies. (Wow. That is complete bullshit. :H ) Oh, I know. Trust me. I know I loved him, but I would never make any statements or hold any belief that he loved me. That was the risk I had been willing, and trying, to take ... too bad it failed all four times Exactly. I fall in love with people I know will not love me back, at least not completely, because I do not WANT them to love me completely. I'm too afraid to get into a relationship that might become too important to me, because when it ended I would be crushed. At my stage in most people's lives, they aren't looking to settle down forever -- at least, I'm not -- so I knew none of my relationships were going to be "forever." That being said, I've tried to find situations in which the other person was the kind of soul I'd be willing to find companionship (if not love) with for extended periods of time -- I've never gone into an encounter expecting to be dumped the next morning (or later that night, as it so happened on three occasions). Regrettably, my ideas of (relatively) long-term acquaintenceship were dashed when the other party got what he wanted (or rather, didn't quite get exactly what he wanted). That's what I mean ... sex seems to be SO misused! Yet from my historical studies it seems it has ALWAYS been misused, so I thought perhaps there was some inherent inequality built into it that would make it impossible for it to ever work on an emotional level. And as far as myself ... when you have seen what I have seen, and nothing but, when you are not yet twenty ... it makes you think there is something so terrible about yourself that you will never be acceptable or pleasing to another person, even WITHOUT the inherent inequalities of human sexual interaction. I mostly like myself anyway (thanks to that book I read, actually) -- I just do not ever want to be in an exploitative situation again (unless I know it for what it is and can insulate my soul from it, as mentioned in one of my other threads)
Originally Posted by Alana I rarely answer Forum questions via PM - but I think we should chat. YOU teach people how to treat you. In other words, what you allow becomes the norm. You can have all the friends you want, and all the sex you want, and you can STILL remain in control. Promiscuity is a mixed bag - you get all the sex you want, but the drawback is that you get the BS that goes with it. You can't have both, unless you separate the pleasure from the pain. What I mean is - only have the sex YOU want, make them work for what THEY want. Plaesure is paramount for both parties, but not at the expense of your ultimate pleasure. I'd love to chat more about this - because I've been there. My advice to you is learn to please yourself, and take the power, and/or the responsibility, away from others. Masturbate for effect. Make a date with yourself, just to please yourself. Touch and caress every part of your body. Learn your own pleasures. Until then, there is NO WAY others are going to be able to live up to your standards, unless you now what your standrds are to begin with. Get back to me I'll post this publicly if you wish Alana I think we are both feminists ... but different kinds of feminist. I have SO MUCH to say in response to this that I doubt it could fit in one PM. Plus I prefer real-time debating, rather than trying to make all my points at once. I don't consider myself a feminist. I will admit to a hedonistict sexual appetite.
How do you figure that? Because when I have tried, it has not worked. I do not think it could ever work because sex itself basically consists of a man taking possession of my body for his own use. I'm not promiscuous ... I don't think, although sometimes (like tonight, hence staying up until 6:30 am) I do stigmatize myself for being a whore. (I've only had four partners, but all four have treated me like shit and I wish I had never slept with any of them.) By seperating pleasure from pain, do you mean I should fuck people I don't care about? To me that is promiscuity. I am not sure I want to have sex at all any more. The times I have wanted to, have backfired and led me into a life of constant self-doubt, disappointment, and humiliation. And those results are only from the sex I have WANTED. Somehow it is easier to deal with the sex I DON'T want, because when they leave me afterwards it is easier to take. I already know how to please myself. I can please myself quite well, actually. My problem comes when I want to share myself emotionally (because to me, sex has to involve a degree of emotion) with another human being. It never works. I do not think it ever CAN work. I can have an orgasm alone. I am afraid to have one in front of another person, because it proves I am vulnerable and that he has power over what I feel. It makes me into his possession. I think you and I have different definitions of "feminist." I define a feminist as someone -- male or female -- who genuinely believes women are human beings and ought to have appropriate rights and powers. You appear to be of the feminist school of thought that believes women can exercise their rights by fucking like men. I am of the school of thought that believes women can exercise their power by not ever letting those sonsofbitches turn us into blowup dolls in the first place. Hope this response doesn't seem too harsh ... I don't intend for it to be. I just have strong opinions and am stubborn
I didn't think it was harsh at all. I'm stubborn too, it makes the free exchange of information a bit more interesting. ;]
Suncatch, I hate to say this because I've been at the other end of the "you're too young and inexperienced to know"... But at age 19 and having had only 4 partners, it's just to soon to make any radical generalizations about sexual relationships. Much more so to make the decision - which you won't keep - not to have sex! I like your posts because they resonate with my own experience, somehow. I actually lost my virginity at 19, so I'm a late-bloomer. Recently I ended a very controlling 3-year commitment, and my first long-term relationship. Immediately after, I had an experience which made me feel expendable: an older woman, whom initially I just wanted to fuck, acts genuinely interested and then disappears... refusing to answer my calls, etc. This happens exactly when I, as usual, begin to feel infatuated. It made me realize I wanted neither a cheap fuck whom I won't feel free to call the next day, nor a possessive relationship. I wanted a friend... and sex. Now I'm in another spot. A 7-year friend (whom I never as much as kissed) and I go ahead and have sex over Halloween. Mind you, we loved each other long before this, but in a Platonic fashion. Now we're trying to define the relationship. To be specific, we're trying to decide between getting married and having babies or going to the swing club on 28th St. --- or both. I'm no longer sure that friends with benefits is what will be most fulfilling for me. I remember you have posted in the past wishing for that kind of arrangement. I'm less sure about marriage and children... But anyways, I think first you have to have an idea what you want. And that comes only through experience. Have you been in a full-blown commitment? I also think you're battling with issues of self-esteem, like myself. It's become clear over time that I attracted and became attracted to women who were no good for me. And that is what tends to happen when issues of self-worth aren't resolved. In my case, but I suspect, in most everybody's, family issues are at the root. Make a list of the kinds of people and relationships you don't want. And do not compromise or feel pressure to satisfy them sexually in any way. Cut the off, whatever. Let them search for kindred souls. You deserve better. That would be a firm decision, but a reasonable one. Finally, I don't think your liberalism concerning sex is free from conflict. Feeling "like a whore" is an indication of it.
I know the point ... well, points. I've thought about them a lot myself. (I might be young but that does not mean I don't think and reason very logically. ) I know I am young to make generalizations, but this one is based on observations of not only my own experiences but also those of many many other people in my life -- people whose paths I cross on a daily basis. I really, truly cannot think (out of all the relationships I have observed in the past 19 years) of more than 5 which fall outside the category of inequality. Even reading literature and listening to love songs makes the schism between male and female (or rather, because it also applies to homosexual relationships, the one with the peg and the one with the hole) quite obvious. The one with the peg always wins, and the one with the hole always ends up in servitude. I have never in my life (not even at a very young age, before I could even explain why not) wanted marriage or children (which is one of the reasons I think perhaps I am not really female inside). However, I am not a libertine -- I don't think of sex in conservative terms, but I don't personally engage in (what could be considered) promiscuous behaviors. I've never gone to bed with someone without thinking long and hard about it beforehand. Those posts about wanting to be a complete libertine, were wishful thinking on my part because I WANT to be the kind of person who can fuck without consequence. I have been in a committed relationship but it was smothering and oppressive. (He told me he needed to marry me in order to keep me safe from the world.) I feel like a whore because even the people I want (the people I would put on the "want" list -- I have already made the list of situations and people I would and would not want) have treated me horribly, and I have let them. I have self-esteem problems because everyone I have trusted enough to share myself with, has hurt me -- and they have hurt me because I have allowed them to, so it is my own fault. If I missed a point ... let me know
I've never wanted marriage or kids either and I'm completely female, wants for the future have nothign to do with gender. I think you really just need to find someone who will treat you with love and respect - real love and respect, not smother you to death, not treat you like scum. You've had shittyass luck with men so far, because of the 5 guys I've fucked so far (soon to be 6), only one do I regret even a little and that was just my second relationship. Not to say I haven't had unhealthy relationships - the person before my first real bf tore me up baaad (never bedded him though) but there really are guys out there who will treat you with the basic respects you deserve as another human being. Just because you haven't found them yet doesn't mean they aren't out there, it just takes a little hunting sometimes.
Suncatch, you think to much. You should be enjoying every moment of your life instead of trying to make sense out of the world. You have to live and learn, and you have to move on. And you have to put every individual circumstance into it's own perspective rather than generalizing them into a set of similar situations to which you think you can apply a reasonably broad explanation. When you do that, it's wrong. And you will be miserable because of it. Take everything that is wrong in your life as it's own problem. For example. You said you have self-esteem issues. That's a problem. So solve it. How do you solve it? You go to the root. Use that approach on every problem, and you will see brighter days. If those pictures on your page are of you, then you are a very beautiful girl. And I know from your detailed posts that you are extremely intelligent. And you are only 19. So you are young, smart and beautiful, therefore, you have nothing to worry about and everything to look forward to. You have your whole life ahead of you. But if great things are to happen to you, it will be because you took an optimistic approach to any challenge you have ever faced. That means even when you feeling the lowest you ever felt, find something to smile about. I enjoy dancing myself (breakdancing more specifically). But to each her own.
I know what you mean. I am definitely sick of being someone's toy, but the thing is, I let him do it anyway. Why, I don't know. Maybe because I like feeling like I matter to someone, if only for a couple hours or so. But there's always the kind of sex that was worth waiting for. Which I miss. So don't feel weird, I know exactly what the kind of thing is that's going through your mind, being all fed up with sex and such. I'm getting there, but I love it too much to stop. LOL. The guilty or worthless feeling afterwards sucks though. I guess all you have to do is find someone who is worth it, someone who you feel great about after you fuck them.
