Mescaline extraction from San Pedro/peyote?

ahh, now we're getting somewhere.

if you're not concerned about purity, and would like to skip the defatting process, then sure...you can do that. a final washing wouldn't hurt, though, to make sure you get rid of
any leftover solvent and some impurities.
and yes...skipping the defatting process would save some time.

trying both methods, now THAT'S applying the scientific method. To be honest, no..I haven't tried omitting the defatting process, so if you do both, you'll have one-up on me in that department. Though I have worked with phalaris grasses as well, and like san pedro, you deal with a LOT of plant matter, and that includes a lot of fat.

but, there's no wrong way to go about this, assuming you keep in mind your aqueous/solvent layers, and pH.

 

I know there are already posts about this step, but I still am a little unsure, since I don't wanna screw anything up.

I was planning on using citric acid in step 5 to extract the cactus alkaloids out of the xylene solution. I wasn't concerced with having any excess citric acid in the final product, but I know that citric acid is not a strong acid; therefore, will it take alot of acidic water to neutralize the alkaloids in solution? I don't know if I'm supposed to add alot of acidic water, then check the water layer after a few minutes of mixing, and that should contain a majority of the alkaloids or not.

I wanted to do a couple of extractions as well with the acidic solution as well, is this what you would not do with other dangerous/stronger acids to avoid any acid bi-products within the salt crystals? It seems like Shulgin thinks that multiple citric acid extractions is worthwhile.

I seem to have every other step in this extraction pretty well understood except for this one. I'm a little confused about the results and procedure with this step, especially because I would like to maximize the amount of extracted alkaloid salts from the xylene solution.

Any input would be appreciated.

 

you don't want to use too much acid, or else you'll be left with a hell of a lot of citrate salt, which will comprise most of the final mass (not the alkaloids).

if you use a weak acid like citric, just use a bit more (but don't do multiple additions of it throughout the extraction process), and certainly use a weak base like ammonia.

 

you know what, f#ck it.

i'm just gonna skip the defatting, and recrystallize proper at the end. I can see where it's a pain in the ass, working with large volumes of liquid.

p.s. -- roebic @ lowe's = 100% naoh

2 lbs. for $8 and some change, after tax

 

So doing more than one citric acid extraction in step 5 would not be entirely beneficial because the majority of the mass evaporated would just be citrate salts? I thought that doing multiple extractions would pull out the remaining alkaloids in the xylene layer, or do the vast majority of the alkaloids come out in the first extraction (as long as the extracted layer has reached a neutral/slightly acidic pH after mixing and reacting)?
It seems like the process in step 5 calls for a few extractions reguardless of which acid you use in the end (though some will end up with more solution to evaporate than others); this is what confuses me most.

"If you can't or don't want to estimate the alkaloid content, Trout gives the following work-around: add very small quantities of acidic water to the xylene, let separate, and then collect the water layer. Check the pH of the water, and it should be neutral. Repeat this with small batches of acidic solution until the water layers come out acidic."

"If you are using citric acid and you are not worried about having citric acid powder in the final product, you can just add enough acidic water to make the solution slightly acidic, and repeat this once or twice, then combine the extracted water layers."

And if I used ammonia as the base in step 3, would I be able to bring the pH level of the aqueous solution up the recommended of 10 (since ammonia is a weak base)? Reguardless it seems like it would yield alot more solution that needs to be separated with even more xylene in step 4; especially compared to how much xylene would be needed if using sodium hydroxide. I just figured that it would be a significant amount more xylene required.
I guess this is the point though (using ammonia that is), as to not need too much citric solution to neutralize the strong basic xylene layer that naoh would create, therefore keeping the final product purer; however I didn't contemplate using ammonia before and am curious to how it would change things.

 

yeah, I went back and saw that (acidification step); I used a 25 drop 32% hcl in 500ml water solution, and did multiple washes on the xylene layers with small amounts of the acidic water

where I goofed was the basic solution extraction...forgot to do multiple extractions; just did one good one with each portion, and tossed the aqueous layer *shakes head* damn it all to hell

 

This may be a stupid question that you might not be able to answer, considering the variation in the potency of San Pedro specimens, but.....

Is it possible using this technique, if all the directions are followed extremely carefully, details are taken into full account, and measuring of all chemicals done with precision that you can achieve an experimental yield of 50% or greater?

I know that this particular technique is meant for ease and simplicity of extraction and not out to get every last bit of alkaloid available (as Trout points out), but I was unsure what I could come to expect as far as yield if I have decently potent cactus and a mind for being extremely strict with every step followed.

It just doesn't seem like too many alkaloids will evaporate from small amounts of acidic washings in the end. I don't know what to expect I will be left with.

Thanks for the input.

 

well, the alkaloids won't evaporate, per se, but they will degrade if you keep them in basic solution for too long. and you don't have to be very precise on the xylene amounts

I suppose yield could be calculated against literature percentages X mass of your cactus ; but as you said, content varies

 

Now that we've thoroughly discussed plant matter alkaloid extraction and de-fatting ad nauseam, could one use the same process to extract pseudoephedrine from a plant like Ephedra Nevadensis. SWIM has had quite a lot of experience with this technique extracting n,n-DMT from Mimosa Hostilis rootbark. (minus the recrystalizing out of water, simply beacuse the DMT works in freebase form.) I am just curious... And also, Polymer, would this be where your chromatography column could come in handy to recrystalize the mescaline hcl crystals out of the water to an even better purity. If so, could you please explain to us how we might approach that technique as well... Thanks.


BEN dOVER

 

yesh.

this is where solubility in a particular solvent is really important. chloroform would probably work best (ethanol, or everclear, if it's in HCl form), with 150 mesh silica in the column, about 3 inches deep.

first, you elute chloroform (or ethanol) through the silica packed column, wait till it's all nice and wet, and add your extracted goo soaked in chloroform (or ethanol) into the column. collect all chloroform (ethanol), evaporate, do a final recrystallization with boiling hexane.

 

It's not the intelligence that I'm lacking, but the common sense knowlege. Just a couple final questions on Step 5 Salt Formation and Extraction. I continue reviewing this step but find hiccups here and there that I feel the need to clear up.

"If you can't or don't want to estimate the alkaloid content, Trout gives the following work-around: add very small quantities of acidic water to the xylene, let separate, and then collect the water layer. Check the pH of the water, and it should be neutral. Repeat this with small batches of acidic solution until the water layers come out acidic."

1.) If I was to use HCl, what is an appropriate pH for the aqueous extraction layer once it was given time to mix thoroughly with the xylene layer and separate? Should it just be slightly acid (pH 5-6) or quite acidic (pH 3) to extract the most amount of alkaloids?

2.) And how many washings of acidic water is appropriate to get as much of the alkaloids as possible before the xylene layer is exhausted (completely washed of the alkaloid content)? Will the xylene just become completely neutralized after a few washings (exhausting the extraction), or will it continue to neutralize through several washings even though all the alkaloids have been extracted through the first couple washings? I don't want to do repeated washings that just leaves me with more acid water and no alkaloids.

which leads me to one more.....

"I have been told that using hydrochloric or acetic acid has the advantage that both are volatile and that excess will evaporate off, unlike citric acid."


3.) I know HCl is volatile and excess will evaporate off; however, if I add too much excess acid during final extraction, will all of the excess acid evaporate off or will I be left with dangerous amounts in the final product that could be harmful/fatal? I just don't want to hurt myself here, yah know.

I know I've just been hammering you with previously posted questions, but I remain confused.

Thanks again for all the input.

 

1) pH of 3 should be fine

2) as many as you feel necessary, probably 3 or 4.. after 5 washings may be pointless though

3) even if the pH is still around 3, it won't really harm you. pH of gastric juices are around 2.8 or less. Limes are about pH of 3

 

Thanks alot Polymer, your knowledge has really cleared things up for me. I appreciate it.

 

np, lotus.

come to think of it, C123, that procedure on drugs-forum isn't half bad. I've noticed that dry powder really balloons up after adding water to it, so a pressure cooker would be just the ticket.
working with 338g dry peruvianus powder, and I'll integrate techniques from both writeups, recrystallization done my way (vacuum (hot) filter with hexane)

 

Before when I had asked you about using citric acid for final extraction, you had said in turn to use a weak base for basification of solution. I reviewed the supplies on the extraction guide and Trout says that a strong base is necessary for extraction.

1.) Does it matter if I use a weak base like ammonia instead of NaOH?


I tested old household/cleaning grade liquid ammonia with wide range pH paper. At first the color was indicating pH of around 12; then as the paper dried, the color faded, indicating a pH between 8-9. Since Trout says in Step #3 that....

"After de-fatting, slowly add sodium hydroxide to the aqueous solution until the pH is up around 10.......Making the solution basic turns the alkaloids into their free base forms, which are soluble in xylene."

It doesn't seem like I will be able to adjust the solution to the recommended pH if I use ammonia.

2.) Will I be able to turn as many alkaloids as possible into their freebase forms for the next step with a weak base like ammonia or will many remain in their water soluble forms (wasting precious alkaloid content)?

3.) Even if using household liquid ammonia is feasible, won't I need to use a lot more liquid to make the solution basic then compared to using a concentrated NaOH solution?

4.) Is their a stronger form of ammonia than just the cleaning grade liquid stuff from the grocery store? Or is pH 9 all the stronger it will get since it is a weak base?

I must be driving you crazy with all this discussion, I'm just trying to make a final decision on using NaOH and HCl or ammonia and citric acid; just trying to weigh the pros and cons here. I had planned on using NaOH and citric acid but your input made me think differently as I didn't want too much excess citric acid in the final product. But I still wanted to remain safe with the citric acid.

Still though....

Just in case I decided to use HCl, I had asked you about the dangers of having too much HCl in the final product if using it for final extraction and you said that even if the pH is 3, it should be alright.

5.) What I was trying to get across was that HCl is poisonous (as we both know), so wouldn't having too much acid in the end make the final product poisonous as well (especially if I do several washings to extract as many alkaloids as possible)?? Or will the excess acid evaporate off??

6.) I know you said you had used HCl for the final extraction, but what's your opinion on using NaOH/HCl vs. ammonia/citric acid?

It just seems like citric acid is the thing to use if you wanna stay on the safe side, even if you're being as careful as possible with stronger, more volatile acids.

 

Assuming this may be your first time doing this; ammonia and citric acid are most certainly your best bet for titration. You really don't need to lower the PH to levels that stronger acids (like HCl) will give, and the same with higher PH like NaOH. I think alot of the techs out there overshoot a bit, and citric and ammonia seem much safer, and just as effective as polymer leads on.

Think about it, you really don't have anything to lose in this method, and no harm could really be done with simple E330 and NH3, as long as you don't fuck up BIGTIME. Just shoot for this initially and after it works, move up to the stronger acids/bases if you even need to.

BTW... I don't know who "Trout" is, but a strong base is totally unnecessary IMO. NH3 should work fine. It won't raise the PH to 10, maybe 8.5 - 9 max, but that should certainly suffice. IDK, polymer, correct me if I'm wrong...

 

The people on this website are completely awesome. Thanks once again.

 

no smoke, you got it. it's a safe route to use the more accesible weak acids and household ammonia, especially for people who haven't done many titrations before. the only consequence is a lot of liquid to work with, but it's harder to over shoot the effective pH ranges.

personally, I work with hcl and naoh, and you can too, as long as you monitor the pH everytime you add small amounts of hcl. it's the basic phase you have to watch carefully; mescaline is susceptible to degradation in high pH solution for extended periods of time.

extractions are easy; it just takes some practice, and a lot of patience.

 

wow...
so this is what it looks like in HCL form, after you wash the crap out of it, and recrystallize http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/show_image.php?i=mescaline/mescaline2.jpg

's not mine (wish it was, tho...that's pretty)

 

I have done several titrations in the past, and am quite educated with alot of organic chemistry, believe it or not (even though you probably wouldn't realize it from my endless posts about chemistry babble). However it has been a few years since I've been in the lab or worked with any crystallization processes. Chemistry is a passion to me but I haven't been in the mix with it for quite awhile.

I've never done any extraction processes before in general, so I'm just trying to be absolutely thorough on everything I'm doing to be safe and maximize yield, seeing that this extraction process came from the internet and not from a chemistry textbook, yah know. I'm starting from the basics again to get my knowledge back up to speed, and this is a great learning experience I feel.