I was speaking about the over all picture of NDE and not just of myself. Yet your not really looking for proof are you. And even if there were hundreds of witnesses, I'm sure you would say well there are thousands that did not see. If you really want to believe in something, you will seek out those answers, and if you don't want to believe, you will ignore the truth that is there. God will never force you to go to heaven, thats your choice. I believe the thing that's going to be so sad for so many, is when the realize what they could of had, but were to busy pretending to be wise.
I'm always amazed at the number of people around the world who believe.Many of these people are far smarter than i am, many highly educated and yet, i still don't understand why they do. If it's a matter of just faith then so be it but faith alone cannot surely mean its factual. You say "Ignore the truth" like we're missing out on something. And saying "pretending to be wise" like anyone who questions your faith is maybe too dumb to know the truth. I claim to be dumb but there are others who know how to contradict what you believe in better than i can, many in this forum..What i'm trying to say is i don't believe but i also fall under the catagory of someone without as much knowledge as many of you believers and disbelievers..So, maybe what i say doesn't have much merit.
Simonoedipus Dont feel low, occam thinks and feels the same as you. He has no real answer to those who PROCLAIM that they KNOW. But cannot produce repeatable verification. Cant really do it if you have to die to get the data. THUS THEY ARE SAFE. AND CANNOT BE QUESTIONED. In the arena of the 'average' man.. very clever. Occam
When I was young there were many things I did not know. And there are many things I do not know now. Yet I took the time to question many of the claims of the Scriptures. And in doing so, I discovered enought to understand that the Bible is the truth of God. When people put down the Bible, I know they are the ones who have not taken the time to consider it, yet often they come here speaking as if they have. There are others who can contradict what I believe, but most of them are unaware that I have heard the voice of God, I have seen His power, and I have a personal relationship with this person. And I have experienced this, not because I am any better then they, but because I have learened to trust and believe in a God that is real.
Campbell34 And occam has come to believe that HUMANS do not need a god. REASON has told him this. the same reason you use to justify the claims of the bible. In fact if god made everything, then human reason is our only defence against asteriods, earthquakes and solar flares. God made them ... NO? Then to exist. We must use reason to make sure we dont get wiped by gods mechanisms. Or do you in your devine knowing think, That if we see a trillion tons of rock comming straight at us. if we all bow down and prey to your god. [To be destroyed by HIS asteriod is HIS WILL. Who are YOU to question HIS will????] It will go away? Who is the fool that does NOT step out of the path of a runaway truck.?? Or shoot out its tires.?? If you agree, then you agree with nature, and nature has no morality. No religion Occam
An Astroid is already on it's way, and will be part of the end time judgement that will strike the earth. It will hit one of earths seas and it will distroy one third of the ships in that sea, along with a third of the marine life. This is farther down the road, yet it will happen. Gods people have nothing to fear. God has a plan of escape for them. The Astroid is just a small part of the picture of whats going to happen. God in the end can and will control nature. And God will do it for all the right reasons. The God of the Bible tells us not to lean on our own understanding, but in all ways acknoledge Him. God is light years beyond our understanding.
Campbell Earth has already been hit by several asteriods/comets that have wiped out not 1/3 but 99% of all life. Yet here we are. Life will find a way. Evolution...'works' Occam says to you in response to your comment "The god of the bible tells us not to lean on our own understanding." but, based on the message of history "The god of the bible wont help you to understand' 'EVER' EVERYHTING we have now. A semblance of civilization, from toaster ovens to 100 teraflop MPP's. Taco bell to billion dollar offshore accounts. From Keats to beethoven and Einstien. Is what WE made in our own understanding We are but slaves is what is being said. Puppets for your god to play with. To throw into the ovens of auschwitz. To be sent to heaven or hell in some arbitary sweepstake that has no rational merit. Those who lick his arse go to heaven,, all others burn forever. The God of your religion is lightyears ahead of YOUR understanding. He is to occam a vicious liitle man with hate in his heart and a really stupid idea of reality. Heaven and hell is the stuff of preconditioned morons. Did the father of god, 'do things' to him. making HIM such a monster. "As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, I will cut you off completely. I will show you no pity at all because you have defiled my Temple with idols and vile practices. A third of your people will die in the city from famine and disease. A third of them will be slaughtered by the enemy outside the city walls. And I will scatter a third to the winds and chase them with my sword. Then at last my anger will be spent, and I will be satisfied. And when my fury against them has subsided, all Israel will know that I, the LORD, have spoken to them in my jealous anger. "So I will turn you into a ruin, a mockery in the eyes of the surrounding nations and to everyone who travels by. You will become an object of mockery and taunting and horror. You will be a warning to all the nations around you. They will see what happens when the LORD turns against a nation in furious rebuke. I, the LORD, have spoken! (Ezekiel 5:11-15) Occam
One the subject of nature having no morality i think i can understand. Us being a "grain of sand in an ever expanding universe" or something like that, can't remember where i heard it..Anyway, the only problem is, i have a conscience. I tried defying it on occasion but it catches up with you in the end doesnt it?..I hope i'm not sounding confusing because i can't express it too well. Is our conscience(in regards to morality) a natural occurance or is it instilled into us by others? Once again, sorry to change the subject somewhat.
The God of the Bible states that if it were not for His coming man would destroy himself. God knew how bad the weapons of war would become long before man knew it. The God of the Bible has given us a mind to think with, and invent, and many of the great inventions of the world have come about because of Christian men. And many of the sicknesses we are now having to deal with, is a direct result of the sexual revolution that the Bible warned us against. It was not God who threw people into the ovens at Auschwitz, it was the same evil that nailed Gods Son to a cross. And it is the same evil that tells woman it ok to take your unborn and have doctors rip their small bodies apart and toss them into dumsters. This evil is supported by people like you. And God will punish men who have indifference in their heart when it comes to the most innocent of life. You say heaven and hell is not a reality. But I can tell you, I have experienced the demons the Bible talks about, I have heard their screams, and I can tell you, they fear Hell. And God will turn against a nation when they think they are better than God, and when a nation tells God to shut His mouth, and then tells God we will kill who we want to kill because it's our right. In the end, all murders will get what they deserve. The vicious little men, are the ones who mock God, and pratice or support murder. Only those who strive for a pure heart, and obey the God of truth, will be spared. God will send men to heaven or Hell, but just remember, He will only do this after you have indicated to Him by your own actions who you will follow. Heaven or Hell is your choice, and your choice alone. Don't blame God for the choice you have made.
And what of all the GOOD men and women that are good because their reason requires them to be. That are moral because there IS rational morality. will they not ALL go to hell? The last line in your post is very familliar. "Heaven and Hell is your choice, and your choice alone. Dont blame god for the choice you have made." Sounds SO MUCH like the crazy who has taken a [girl usually]hostage and has a gun to the her head. And says. Throw down your weapon or i kill her, it up to you, your call, your responsibility. What YOU are saying is god MADE hell, a place of torture. And cannot unmake it. Cannot be compassionate. Cannot remove an abomination it made in the first place. Thus in our age of reason. Where we have finally escaped the horrors of the inquisition. Your stupid little god insists that billions will continue to burn in hell That there is no god of love. because GOOD PEOPLE are sent to hell. Occam
Occam, you are still relying on your straw-man concepts of hell and the Christian God. I have given you an alternative view of Hell that is as biblical as any other and yet your response was essentially "That's BS." You never countered, you never supported your position. Your objection is meaningless because the fundamental concepts on which your argument rests are not an accurate representation of the whole of Christian thought and belief. There are Christian schools of thought against which your entire objection is essentially worthless, yet you have not for a moment considered them. Why not? Do you think that turn-or-burn Christianity is the only "correct" form of Christianity?
Christian thought and belief.? There are christian schools of thought? They think occams arguement is worthless? Then how is it that the 'west' has gone from being 100% christian under the horror of the 15th century church. To being 30 % christian? If that. Are you saying that these people that no longer beleve your crap. [200 million in america alone] Are stupid? Occam suggest they might be the leading edge of a movement to sanity and reason on this planet. Not the fear based carrot and stick method of religion Be good, go to good plce. Be bad, go to bad place occam
You think that there aren't? There are at least three schools of though regarding salvation *alone*. Multiple schools of thought within the realms of sanctification, grace, prophecy, interpretation, etc. Your objection is rendered moot, yes. Because they don't believe in eternal torture, nor do they believe that God arbitrarily sends good people to eternal suffering (and suffering is not the same as torture). They still believe in God and Hell and are still Christians, and the fundamental assumptions of your argument can be ignored because they are straw men. I don't know. But this is irrelevant to your objection and to my argument. So, why bring it up?
God is compassionate, thats why He sent His Son to die on the cross for our sins. Today people are telling God, we don't need your gift of eternal life, we will get to heaven our own way. So take your stupid Book and shove it. God made Hell for the Devil and His angles, all who side with the Devil will share in his same fate. God is looking for people who will freely give their lives to Him. God made Salvation easy for those who love God. Salvation is only hard for those who oppose Him. God does not insists that billions burn in Hell, you insist, because you and all the others will not obey Him. Take responsibility for yourself, and your own actions. God has told you what to do, don't blame Him because you choose to ignore His warnings. And I got news for you, according to God, there is no such thing as a good person. The Bible tells us that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. No one will enter heaven because they deserve to be there, that includes me. I will only enter heaven, because I have accepted Gods blood sacrifice.
Well Jesus said Himself that when He would return would there be any faith left on the earth, so Jesus knew that there would be a great falling away. The decline of the Christian faith was spoken of in the Bible, and as we can all see, the Bible was right again.
And the bible will be right. Up to and and including the time when NONE believe it true, any more than we now believe Valhalla and mount olympus to be real places. Or odin and zues real beings Your god will eventually sit beside odin. A theological non event. A piece of human history never taught in schools any more. To quote a human monster, but an astute human none the less "The greater the lie, the more people will believe it." We all know this. It's called 'what really happens in the world'. Occam
Yes, but if the Bible is a lie why are it's prophecies true? And the prophecies are informing you, that the God of the Bible will never be found in the trash heap of all other fallen religions or faiths. Because the God of the Bible, and His Word, is true.
Yet we see the new dawn taking leaps and bounds in the horizon, and the age of myth shall hold no truth for tomorrow.
And we know that when the Bible told us that at the end of time the Jews would return to Israel and retake Jerusalem, we know the Bible spoke the truth, because the Jews are there today.
