The Dok 'n' Starfly Bitchin' Thread

I was thinking more of your general posting history. Although I still think the Boscastle post counts as a lecture, but hey.

And what's your point? The thing is, you've talked a lot about how you're effectively 'spiritually advanced', and motivated by love, and a lightworker etc etc etc. So if this is the case, then it's not unreasonable to expect you to be able to demonstrate. Starting with a little compassion and a tad less hypocrisy. The only reason I'm drawing your attention to these things is because of your previous claims to superiority.

Ummmm.... bollocks! I certainly believe global warming is taking place, but it's still not certain whether this is due to man or not. Not that it really matters, coz pollution is bad whatever. But you certainly can't demonstrate that one particular incidence of heavy rain is caused by global warming! Do you think this is the first flash-flood in history?!?

Bollocks. Have you any idea of the actual ratio of tarmac to earth? It's a very rural area? Quite aside from which, the speed at which Boscastle flooded.... no quantity of drainage or permeability was going to disperse that water. Your argument might hold up in a more urbanised environment, with a flood that built up over time, but in this instance it's ridiculous.

Let me get this straight...... the people who've lost their homes and livelihoods are 'silly sods'? Oh man, you really are a heartless bitch, aren't you? What about the people who were born there (ie, the majority of the residents)? Perhaps they should all have moved? I'm sure that'd be easy for them, what with Cornwall being England's poorest region 'n' all.

No, I don't actually. Glastonbury was an island, therefore above sea level. Substantially above sea level. Well ahead of you there

Oh well, that's ok then. I'm sure if you point that out to them they'll feel a lot better about being homeless and destitute.

What a load of bollocks. Of course it's more important that the children were saved, but that doesn't reduce the tragedy of people losing everything else of any importance to them.

Yet more bollocks. Of course they give a shit! These things are valuable to people! Have your own bullshit philosophy be all means, but don;t project it onto the rest of the world. Not everyone shares your values.

Well that just goes to show what an arrogant, hearltess bitch you are then, doesn't it? I think I just lost any last shred of respect that I might've had for you. I can accept that you place no value in cars, in houses, in photographs.... but what makes you an arrogant, hearltess bitch is that you're unwilling to show any empathy or sympathy or apparently emotion for those who do place value in such things. Just because your priorities are different from someone else's, it shouldn't stop you empathising with them.

How noble of you. All this demonstrates is that you fit you emotions to your agenda, and that's tragic.

You don't need to share the same values as someone in order to empathise with them. Empathy is the ability to put yourself in someone else's situation and to understand what they're feeling and going through, and thereby to sympathise with them. So what if you don't believe in houses, cars, tat..... does that mean that those people will experience the loss any the less acutely? Should this reduce the empathy that you have for those people? Hell, it might be a tiny bit less insulting if you didn't have a house, a car, tat...... oh yeah, and a willingness to generate 600 miles worth of motor pollution in order to pick someone up for a festival. You're not just a hypocrite.... which, as I've said, I can live with, beacause we all are to an extent..... but you're a heartless, arrogant hypocrite.

Someone commented to me yesterday about how they didn't believe your apology on the Boscastle thread was genuine. The funny thing is, I actually defended you, and said I thought maybe it wasn't 100%, but that perhaps you'd understood how you'd pissed people off and really felt sorry about it. I should've know better.

 

Well c'mon, it's not rocket science! You just spent your entire last post saying how you had no sympathy for the people of Boscastle!!!

Nope, I don't find it entertaining. Nor do I find it entertaining when you post arrogant and patronising comments. So while you carry on doing that, I'll carry on responding.

I'm not interested in changing you. Only you can do that, and it doesn't look like you have much interest in personal growth. Let me throw the question back at you..... why do you think you can make controversial posts on a public forum and then expect people not to respond?

Oh, so "am gutted" makes up for two entire posts where you go on about how people's 'stuff' isn't important? Didn't you just a moment ago say that you can't feel anything for people who lose their cars and houses? You're a complete fucking hypocrite. You try and wriggle out of the shit that you've posted by pretending that your sentiments were noble, when they were entirely unsympathetic, and there in black and white for all to see.

 

Someone can post something expressing an opinion, it could be an opinion or a feeling that only lasts for a brief moment in time, it might just be one angle and not even the whole opinion. Sometimes what looks like an opinion is merely an open question.

However when that feeling is published it will stay there forever, archived and waiting to be pulled up again and again.

When typing it is also very difficult to express your exact tone of voice or feeling into your post, stuff often appears as being emotive when it often is not meant to be that way.

Sometimes on a forum there is no space for error or changing your mind about something.

I personally prefer to look for the good in people, it's less stressful that way.

That's all ... I'm out of this thread now.

 

Y'know what, Paul? I agree with all that you've said. Let me explain.

I agree. This is why we should be careful how we express ourselves and watch the opinions that we post. Hell, we've all posted things that we regret, probably. However, if we post something that we regret, or that does not reflect our true opinion, then we attempt to rectify the mistake. If not, we have to accept that people will assume that our words as original posted express our true feelings/beliefs.

Yeah. Again, I totally agree. Forums (and the written word in general) are a very poor substitute for face-to-face communications. Body language, posture, facial expression..... all goes a long way towards affecting the character of that which we're trying to communicate. Hell, I'm sure I come across as more confrontational in my posts than I actually am! However, this is another reason we need to be careful when expressing controversial opinions. It's also a reason why we should seek to explain ourselves when we believe we have been misunderstood.

Not sure what you mean by that? Could you explain further please?

Yeah. I agree 100%. I look for the good in absolutely everyone. I also try and understand what motivates someone when they're behaving negatively. This kinda ties in with the 'dislike' thread - which would actually be a good example to illustrate what I mean. On that thread, Starfly managed (eventually) to start communicating rationally. No judgement. No arrogance. No self-righteousness. For that brief time, we were communicating civilly. I don't hold a grudge, and I don't look for the worst in people..... so I responded in kind and held a civilised discourse with her. Unfortunately, it didn't last, and she was soon back to being inflammatory and confrontational.

Yeah, so I agree with you. But I'm also not prepared to sit back while someone expresses a controversial opinion without joining the fray. In fact, I believe it's incumbent upon us to attempt to hammer out the truth, and to challenge bullshit when we hear it. If a person can't handle heated debate, a public forum is not the place to be. At the end of the day, Starfly is as free to ignore me as I am to ignore her. She doesn't like what I say, so she continues to answer my posts. I don't like what she says, so I continue to challenge her.

 

Sometimes on a forum there is no space for error or changing your mind about something.

I can't remember properly now, I think I was referring to the way that some people will drag stuff up time and time again even after the issue is long forgotten ... and even if the person retracts what they say.

I haven't seen it so much in here, it was more just an observation about forums in general.

 

people here are far too serious.... other message boards I'm on everyone bitches about everyone and doesnt rip each persons argument to shreads but actually takes it as a whole and tries to win by gettign their actual point of view across rather then disecting an argument until there is none, and there is no clear conclusion reached. To be fair, every argument is flawed.


And I am well aware that my sentence structure and spelling in the above few lines are appaling, no need to point it out.

 

Some people here may remember me and the good Doc having a serious falling out on the old Hipforums boards... during a thread about smoking... we were both highly passionate about our opinions... we vigorously defended our views and aggressively attacked the arguments of the other... and it got very heated... and, I'm sure that Doc will agree with me here, we both said some things that hurt and offended the other...

But we got past that... I think we have recognised certain similarities in each other... we can both be extremely passionate about certain issues... and we can both be extremely vocal and forthright in the way we tackle these issues... and, whilst our opinions on certain issues may be very different, we have come to realise that we share certain views... and I have personally come to respect the good Doc and what he brings to these forums...

I'm sure that Doc and StarFly will be able to work through their differences... it may take some time and humble words from both sides of the division... but the worst thing we could possibly do now would be to add fuel to the flames so please everybody choose words carefully before adding your comment to this thread... maybe we should just give them some space to work out their differences...

I wouldn't want to lose either the Doc or StarFly from this forum...

Fly...
.

 

No, I don't have a problem with you having controversial opinions. What I have a problem with is the fact that you state them as though they're fact and show no respect for alternative points of view. I also have a problem with the way this makes you apparently unsympathetic towards people who don't share the same values as yourself.

Factually incorrect. You called everyone who votes a sheep - something which I found personally quite offensive, since I've always carefully considered my stance on this issue, and have never blindly voted without giving that action full and proper consideration. And of course context is everything - if you make a post effectively saying that the people of Boscastle deserved what they got for living by the sea and building lots of roads, and that it doesn't matter anyway because houses and possessions aren't important - well, sorry, but that sentiment makes you a heartless bitch in my book.

Well that's hardly my fault, is it? I met a fair few forumers recently. Rather than worry about whether they'd judge me as an arrogant, confrontational, unsympathetic ass-hole based on my forum posting, I decided that they were probably intelligent enough to judge me based on their reaction to me in the 'real' world. I'm sorry that you're paranoid, but that's not something that you can blame on me I'm afraid.

You've spent a lot of time and energy arguing that you're very happy, mentally well-balanced, and have no issues that you've not confronted and dealt with. You've then attacked me as soon as I suggest otherwise. If you expect me to believe your assertions, then it's a bit rich of you to subsequently criticise me for not taking into account that you might be prone to paranoia!

Wrong, wrong, wrong. It's a powerful reaction to the inhumanity and heartlessness of your post, and a powerful reaction the hypocrisy that that represented.

Wrong again. I don't take every opportunity to 'have a go at you'. It seems more as though you take every opportunity to post inflammatory comments. Why call everyone who votes 'sheep'? Why choose a thread where people are expressing sympathy for a community to spout your own agenda? Was that appropriate?

I react based not upon an 'idea of who you are' (although the image of 'who you are' is one that you seem to go to an inordinate effort to promote). I react based upon what you posted. In the 'dislike' thread you were actually managing to remain civil and reasonable for a while, at which point we had a (brief) non-confrontational conversation. That should demonstrate to you that I'm not promoting some personal vendetta, but I do reserve the right to criticise you when I disagree strongly with what you say. Which is frequently.

Oh, I see. So I criticise you and that's an attack on free speech? Bullshit. I'm not trying to silence you. You're free to carry on expressing whatever opinion you wish - as I am free to continue criticising those opinions. In trying to silence me with this argument, and objecting to my criticism of your posts, you're the one who's actually trying to practice censorship.

In usual new-age hypocritical fashion, it's ok for you to disparage the people of Boscastle for owning cars and houses and having the audacity to have possessions. That's fine. That's just you exercising your free speech. But if I react to that, I'm 'rude'. Well I'd sooner be rude than heartless.

*edit*

By the same token, I could say that all I hear flow from you is contempt for other people's lifestyles and values. If people don't have the same priorities as you, then you dismiss them out of hand. Or in the case of Boscastle, you dismiss their trauma and suffering out of hand.

Criticism and disgust? Yeah, absolutely. It disgusts me that you can show a singular lack of empathy for people who've suffered. It disgusts me that you can be so insensitive as to post those comments on a thread that was started in order to express some feeling for those people. It disgusts me that you have the hypocricy to talk of yourself as 'spiritual' and a 'lightworker' and an 'indigo child' when you aren't even capable of showing compassion for people, but would rather take the opportunity to promote your own agenda.

Since when does responding to comments amount to 'ripping to shreds'? It's called a conversation. In the real world, people reply to points as you make them. In the written world, the only way to address particular points is to isolate them and respond to them after the fact. Why does this equate to 'not having my own thoughts'? Or is that just a random, poorly-considered insult? Or perhaps you're just dismissing my thoughts because they don't correspond with your point of view? I consistently express my own thoughts. I also respond to what you say. I'm sorry if you don't have the time/patience/intelligence to do the same, but that's your problem, not mine. If you can't hold your own in a debate, maybe you shouldn't be having one?

 

Oh for fuck's sake, I know this might be a radical suggestion, but you might try actually reading what I say before replying to it. At no point did I ever claim to be hurt. I said I was offended. Whether or not you're hurt at a comment in a forum is related to your sensitivity more than the comment directed to you. Would I be hurt if you called me a wanker? No. Would I be hurt if you called me arrogant? No. Would I be hurt if you called me a stupid scouse twat? No. If you react that sensitively, then this is not my issue.... it's yours. If you can't handle the heated debate of a public forum, then it's not a good idea to go posting what you aknowledge to be controversial opinions.

Everyone's growing daily. That's life. Some people grow quickly, some people grow slowly... but we're all growing.

I understand that there are reasons why you're the way you are, but that doesn't provide you with immunity from criticism. You're welcome to my understanding. You're even welcome to my compassion. But that does not mean that I'll stand back from reacting when you post view that I find offensive. If you're growing every day, then hopefully you'll learn something from my posts. Even if it's just how to deal with aggressive ass-holes.

Duh, no shit. That which does not destroy us makes us stronger. But to follow your logic, everything that happens to us is ultimately for our own good (which I agree with) and therefore we should never need to show anybody any sympathy (which is bollocks). Why do I suspect that your reaction might have been slightly different if the flood had struck, say, tipi valley?

Well seeing as the majority of people on that thread seem to be pretty fucking far from 'on your wavelength', then a bit of tact and discretion might have been the order of the day, eh? And what is 'on your wavelenght' exactly? Being content to see your lifes work washed away? While attachement to material possession is (arguably) a bad thing, most people are fairly attached. Under the circumstances, some understanding of their trauma (which is real, whether justified or not) would be more constructive than a lecture on tarmac and global warming.

Expressing sympathy is creating a bond of empathy with other human beings. If you don't get that, and that's not a priority for you, then you don't have a clue about spirituality.

 

Weren't you worrying about your ex-husband taking you to the cleaners a little while back, or was that my imagination? Dunno why you don't let him have everything. It's only 'stuff' and money.

 

I don't expect to come back from chilling with an amazing bunch of happy festival going forumers, to find a 'bitching' thread! What is a bitching thread anyway? It doesn't belong here. Yes, negative vibes exist in the world, there's plenty of it out there, but this isn't the place for it. I don't know who started the argument, but it's irrelevant. If you have a private quarrel, then keep it private. Threads such as these, not only break the forum guidelines, but more importantly, they kill the peace. Calm down, just walk away from your computers....