(help me out a little, maybe ...?) :)

"8-6-7-5-3- Oh nine"

 

Suncatch22 - sounds from your posts that you are in college and met this boy with whom you have much in common. Also that you are a self-described "tomboy" and probably have not had too much sexual experience with the opposite sex, and you are grappling with friendship and sexuality, and how they interact. The two of you seem to have much in common, which is always a good basis for friendship, and if a platonic friendship can be taken to a deeper, sexual level, that is great.

I suggest you ask him to do something you both enjoy, such as horseback riding, or perhaps hiking, if you enjoy that. Have it be something just the two of you are doing together.

Did you ever think that maybe he is shy too, and really likes you but is having trouble expressing his feelings for you? A lot of guys like "tomboys", because they like the same things guys like, and if love and sex results from the friendship, that is an added benefit of the friendship.

Also, rent the movie "Love, Actually", about couples trying to connect, sometimes unable to get over that hump of actually expressing their feelings for each other.

My wife of many years (now deceased) was a nationally ranked tennis player when she was your age, and I loved the fact that she liked the same kinds of things I did (i.e. being a jock - I was a top rock cimber) and still could be feminine when she wanted to be.

Perhaps you can use the internet to express your initial feelingd for himif you can't do it face to face.

Go for it.

 

I've always been the kind of girl who ignored the whole hair-and-makeup thing; I grew up on a farm with no other children to play with, so I became quite self-reliant and as a result never had much use for the other kids in school. Stigmatized as the weird hick girl, I didn't have many friends and ergo developed my own ideas.
Since I've come to college and actually begun to interact with the world, I've been told that I'm NOT just a homely hick girl (which I've always thought myself to be) -- but since I never learned to interact with other girls, I never learned from them how to flirt with boys. (I only got along with boys, so I learned how to be a boy -- how to be everyone's best friend!)
I've been told by therapists and other adults that I do have a pretty reasonable mindset about how sex should relate to friendship (which is a mindset I won't even TRY to explain here on the forum) -- but regretfully few other people my age share my ideas.
I've had a few lovers (four, to be exact -- all male; and several boyfriends), but they've pretty much just used me as a rag doll and then thrown me away. So I suppose I am now trying to learn, not how sex SHOULD relate to friendship, but how it DOES relate in the eyes of most people.
In other words, I'm learning what to expect from other people. And what I've come to expect is not particularly good ...

That's apparently what guys like about me too -- I don't have all the "silly" female trappings that guys hate, but I'm feminine enough to (for example) shave my legs.
My problem is that I don't flirt like most girls do. Instead I might act a little more shy, and maybe ask to do things (like get a pizza or go for a bike ride) a bit more often; my favorite thing to do is make something special (like a friendly letter illustrated in Sharpie marker, or a batch of cookies or a pie) for someone. But guys often miss out on these subtleties, and think I'm just being a pal ... it seems to express my intentions I would have to resort to miniskirts (I own one, but wear it over leggings, and it has a happy skull-face sewn onto it) and eyelash-batting.
I WOULD wear my happy-skull miniskirt, actually (it looks really good) -- but I don't want to flirt too obviously and make an ass of myself if he's just looking for another pseudo-guy to hang out with. That tends to make things awkward, and taint whatever friendship might come out of it ...

I don't think either of us actually have "feelings" yet -- we're twenty-year-old kids who've just met, and are mutually interested ... no feelings of anything yet, just curiosity
He apparently drops by my apartment fairly regularly (not obsessively, since if that were the case he would have actually run into me more often ...) -- I'm just too shy to try dropping by his.

My problem is that I can never tell what a person's intentions really are. Is this person potentially interested in me as a companion and partner in crime/adventure, is he looking to use me for some nefarious purpose ... or is he really just bored and flirting with me for amusement? I can never tell.
And although this might be shallow ... it can be kind of disappointing if he's just looking for another guy-friend. I sort of feel let down when I am not quite good enough (not quite girl enough, perhaps) to rate actual flirting.
Gosh ... this is why I feel so silly

 

Suncatch22 - Thanks for your long and quick reply to my post. I missed your post about the two guys who mistreated you. I can see why you are careful now - you have been wounded twice. I raised identical twin daughters (with my late wife) so I have seen it all. You say you were not raised with other girls so you do not know how to flirt. But you are at ease with boys, so you have an advantage over the girls who regard guys as wild, alien animals.

When I was your age, I was a wild boy, I must admit, a tall, thin frat guy with no interest in long term attachments. However, that did not mean I did not want female relationships, and I tried to treat my girlfriends with dignity and respect. I dated them for companionship, love and friendship, not for marriage, at your age. Some of the women I dated in my 20s are still friends many years later - but platonic ones. I have had a hot, beautiful, talented girlfriend for the past two years.

I guess the answer for you is to express your feelings for the guy you are interested in - perhaps via the internet if you can't do it face to face. That is how my current girlfriend got me interested. I met her at a party I threw at my house (I had another girlfriend at the time, but that relationship was nearing its end), and we e-mailed for a while and met at various functions, and then began our relationship after the other one ended.

Remember that at 19 or 20 you are probably not looking for a husband now, but a boyfriend. You are both trying out relationships with the other sex, and ultimately when you are ready and if you are lucky, you will find the right mate. I don't know where in the world you are located from your posts, and perhaps the dating rituals in you part of the world are different than they are in California. The "Left Coast" is usually ahead of the rest of the world in things like this.

From you picture, and from what you have said, I think I can tell a lot about you. Hopefully what I say will be helpful.

 

AHAHAHAHA! AHAHAHAHA! Oh man.
You haven't read the rest of my posts ... I am EXTREMELY liberal and don't ever want to get married. I don't believe in "FOREVER" like most other girls do ... I believe there are a lot of good people out there who would make good matches for each person, and therefore I go into every relationship knowing that it is not going to last so I should enjoy it while I have it.
(Neither of the relationships I was in before, were meant to be "forever" -- we didn't even have commitments. I just thought, perhaps stupidly, that they would last for ... months, anyway, rather than only days ... )

I hope not. See above.
I don't think there is any one person for me. That's not to say I would never want to spend a long time with someone -- I have a platonic friend right now who I could easily see being my best bud for the rest of my life. But I don't date to find marriage material, just to find companionship.

Yes. In West Virginia we usually date within our immediate families.
Just kidding. We're not as liberal as Cally-land, but we are pretty liberal here too -- despite redneck rumors, the state is run by hippies. Sure, everyone drives a TRUHCK and some people live in trailers, but mostly people are very laid back, tolerant, and sweet. At least where I'm from.

Well, for one there aren't any FEELINGS yet, just a mutual curiosity. But I AM better at communicating via AIM than face to face (the silences aren't as awkward ) ... however, since he literally lives one floor below me (I'm Apartment 835 and he's Apartment 735) I would feel a little silly chatting with him online!
Also, I don't yet know his AIM screen name. Mostly I think that it's because I don't yet know his AIM screen name. But I'll try to get it from him the next time we talk.

I do appreciate the thought! It didn't QUITE help a lot, but it was encouragement and that was what I needed. You seem like a pretty nice guy. Thanks!

 

Suncatch22 - I have spent the past few months trying to get a Democrat Congress (and it worked) and now we are going after Bush to get him impeached. Check out Moveon.org. and AfterDowningStreet.org.

It's true you don't shit where you sleep and date your housemates, but one floor below seems OK. In college these days, a lot of kids "hang out together" rather than date as couples, which is OK, but random "hookups" are too meaningless to get a lot out of. And if you are drunk too, it is really meaningless. Try to find someone who will like you for longer than one night. It really sounds like this guy is the one. Ask him what his e-mail address is, because you want to send him a poem or an article or something of mutual interest, and add in a comment that you really want to get to know him better - that you like him. People like to receive messages like that. If he ignores you, move on to the next guy. There could be many reasons not associated with who you are why he does not respond - he's got a girl back home, he wants to save his virginity for marriage (A BAD IDEA IF YOU ASK ME), his life is too complicated now to get involved, etc. But since he has stopped by your room several times he obviously is interested in you.

Seize the moment - carpe diem or something like that.

 

Yeah ... that has been my goal all along ... I do hippie relationships, which aren't the same as meaningless college hookups, but sometimes come pretty close.
I've never been with anyone I didn't anticipate being at least friends with for a decent period of time afterward ... and I would like to think they didn't go into the situations TRYING to use me. That is just how their counterculture works -- it's what they thought I would be okay with too. ("Free love! Free sex! No attachment ...")

Oh, I know. But it has always seemed that guys don't notice that I'm interested -- those that I have been interested in, have started thinking of me as their best friend and ignored the fact that I am pretty attracted to them.
Possibly this is because I'm still too hesitant to come right out and say I'm interested. And possibly THAT is because I always assume the guys I am attracted to would never be attracted to me ... I made the mistake once or twice of "settling" for those who were attracted to me but not vice versa, and I'm never going to do that to myself again ...
-- By the way, as you might have gathered, I agree with you that saving oneself for marriage is a bad idea; this kid doesn't seem to be that type, though, he's pretty much a complete hipster and not religious in the least. --

Well ... probably not THE ONE, but definitely someone I could get along with for as long as it would work out.
With the exception of those few guys I mentioned above, I have always tried to pick guys I could handle being at least friends with for the long haul -- not necessarily forever, since I don't even think in terms of that expectation, but possibly if it shook out that way. And I am a pretty good judge of character -- most of my first impressions have been completely correct, and none of the guys I've been involved with have ever outright SURPRISED me. (In a relationship I tend to see the other person very objectively, immediately sensing which of their qualities I like and which might spell trouble in the long run.)

My first impression of this guy was VERY favorable. As far as I can tell, the only red flags about him are: 1.) completely transient lifestyle (this is the second college he's been to in two years, because he wants to see as much of the world as possible, and he wants to try South America next), and 2.) potential relationship-phobia (which, since of course we didn't talk about that in our first conversation, I don't know about -- I'm just making inferences based on other people of his personality type that I have known).

Good plan! I have the weekend off and am fighting a cold, so that means I'll be here most of the day -- but it's not SO serious that I'd be adverse to, say, going out for coffee. So I might try to look this young man up.
Either way, the next step -- AIM screen name exchange.

Excellent. I say, Get rid of the Wizard and Oz will collapse (in other words, get rid of Cheney and his cronies and the whole house of cards will fall -- which, it looks like it's pretty wobbly right now. )
I'm personally working to get the Green Party into some kind of power -- it's time the two major parties lost their monopoly on America, and we gained a party that could represent those voters that the major parties ignore.

 

Well, as President Nixon used to say: "let me say this about that."

Suncatch22, while you say that you don't really believe in "forever" or permanence in relationships, the fact is that a lot of what you've discussed in your posts deal with the fact that guys have either used you or left you, and you're not too happy with that. Hmm...

If you don't believe in permanence in relationships, then that means that you belive in them being temporary. Well, when they're temporary, they end, and when they end, somebody inevitably gets hurt.

See, the whole idea of relationships not being permanent sounds wonderful on paper. The problem is, we're not made out of paper. We're made out of flesh and blood, and we have hearts, and they get broken, and yours has got broken, too.

Even though a huge number of relationships don't last forever, at least when the parties involved INTEND for them to, they work a lot harder at getting along with each other, and trying to make the relationship work. When not even the INTENTION is there of the relationship being permanent, there's a lot bigger chance that one or both of the parties involved is simply using each other for a time so that they can ditch them for someone else, or a zillion and one other reasons (or no reason at all).

I know a girl that recently moved to another country and met a guy-she liked him a lot, and as soon as she got pretty serious with him he just got up and boogied. It hurt her feelings quite a bit. She said it actually broke her heart. But, she said, she didn't really want a permanent relationship or to settle down. I told her, look-it's either one way or the other. It's either permanent or it's temporary. If it's temporary, it means you're gonna break up sooner or later, and in this case it happened sooner. Break ups are never pretty, and somebody ALWAYS gets hurt.

If you want to believe that humans weren't made to have permanent relationships, or that this theoretical world where people can just kind of love each other for a while and go their separate ways with no hard feelings exists, then go ahead-give it a whirl. But, I think what you've already found in the short period of time that you've been having relationships with guys (and then breaking up with them) is that this theoretical 'free love' world really isn't so 'free' after all. If humans were really made that way, it would be different. But I'm really just about as sure as I can be that they're not. As much as we might like to, eventually we all figure out that we can't have our cake and eat it, too. If you don't want a permanent relationship (or even one where that's at least the goal), fine. But if you don't, then you're going to have to deal with the repeated heartbreak of rejection and breakup, and to be on the receiving end of behavior from guys that don't want anything permanent from a relationship (or from you), either. And that's obviously already taken a pretty big toll on you, already.

 

heh wow thought I was the only one..

 

SUNCATCH22 - you said that you would never get married, but 95% of the people in the US do get married at some point, so for you it is probably not "if" -but "when". Although many marriages end in divorce -over 40% - most people try it at least once, and you may may just get lucky and find your soulmate. Many years ago, a lot of college women found their husbands there, but today, young people are marrying later, sometimes to people they met in college, but 5-10 years later when they are more mature and "ready". I married at 29, after sowing some wild oats for most of my 20s, but by 32 I had a house and twin daughters, and I enjoyed the change in lifestyle. So it can happen quickly for you, when you are ready.

 

Okay, I HATE it when people say this to me. I absolutely hate it.
Why do people assume women (or men -- people in general) cannot be complete or happy without being married?
The words "husband" and "wife" -- at least in relation to my own life, for example me being a wife and having a husband -- make me so angry that I literally want to cry.
I'm not sowing any wild oats or doing anything crazy right now -- that's not why I am anti-marriage. I do love adventure, I do love to roam, and if I ever found someone who would be willing to go along with me it would be fine. (For example, I could easily marry that platonic friend of mine, but I don't have romantic feelings for him right now.)
I just never want to have to be someone's WIFE. I never want to have to be demure and quiet and cook and clean and be content serving a man and making his f*cking babies again and again and again. I never want to belong to some asshole and be forced to settle for a life that cannot bring me happiness.

And besides, if I find my soul mate ... who says I have to MARRY him?

Okay, part II.

Non-permanent relationships do not necessarily involve the element of use. I know a number of people who have made no vows, no commitments, but have stayed together for numerous months or years.
The guys I have been with, have been the kind who would stay for months, at least ... but they end up leaving me THE NEXT MORNING. That is not what temporary (or, as I like to say, non-permanent) relationships are about.
Non-permanent relationships are not about having sex and then leaving right away. Those types of deals are called "hook-ups", "one-night stands", "f*ck buddies," or what-have-you, depending on the degree of involvement with the other person.

Non-permanent relationships are about not having to force yourself to be happy in a relationship that is going nowhere.
For example: that platonic friend, my best friend, has a girlfriend right now who wants to get married to him. They have only been going out for two months. He just wanted to have a close, loving relationship with someone for as long as it could last (be that six months, a year, or ten years, whatever) -- but now he feels pressured to "LOVE" her and commit to eventual marriage. He feels guilty that he does not want to marry her, and he does not want to marry her because their desires out of a marriage would be totally different. (She wants a house in the suburbs and lots of babies; he wants to travel with the girl he loves and see more of the world than just the suburbs.) But because he's now in a PERMANENT relationship, he feels obligated to change his life desires in order to please this girl.
He is willing to make himself miserable. I could never do that.
Oh, and guess what. Despite individuals' efforts, even "permanent" relationships end. They almost ALWAYS do. And meanwhile the effort of keeping it together, drives the participants to despair (as I mentioned above). I can imagine that would hurt a lot more than having a non-permanent relationship come to an end.

So what I want is a non-permanent relationship that could potentially last a long time. I wouldn't mind spending a good long time with someone -- I just don't want to force it and end up trapped and miserable again.

 

Suncatch22- When I said "marry" I included a committed, long term relationship where there is no formal marriage. That is in fact what I am in now, and we do not feel the need to get married. Persons of your generation consider that the equivalent of marriage, but either partner is free to leave. It gets complicated, however, when children are involved, or a home, and the couple splits up.

You seem to agree that the one night stand is not healthy, and I agree that it is a poor substitute for a relationship. You also mentioned the guy whose girl is pressuring him for marriage and kids, etc., and that even though he loves her, he is not ready for that now. I agree - at his age I had no interest in getting tied down, since I wanted to travel the world and spread my wings after I finished my education. If I could do it with a woman, that would be great, but that takes money, and I had none when I got out of school.

Keep looking for that special guy who will accept you as you are and respect you.

 

Ah yes. I consider that marriage too, and someday that would be fine. I'm just not going to go LOOKING for it, and expecting every one of my relationships to be THE ONE ... I had a friend who did that, and she ended up alone and pregnant ... :&
To be honest, I didn't think someone who was NOT of my generation would think like that.

I had a bad experience with commitment once. I was dating a boy that I liked as a friend, but NOT EVER as a potential husband ... when he started to push me too fast, I asked for some space, and he replied, "But we are COMMITTED! You HAVE to stay. You HAVE to work it out because this is a precursor to marriage."
I realized that if THAT was what commitment was about ... uh ... no.

 

Age 20 (or younger) is much too young to be talking about "commitments". About as far as you should go, if you ever get that far, is to agree to date the other exclusively until one or both of you decide to call it off. Marriages at your age have a very high failure rate because you are not yet fully mature and your needs, interests and priorities (in life and in men) will change as you get older.
I have told my daughters not to worry about their 20s; their minds won't clear until they reach 30 (I have identical twin daughters).

 

Agreed. (Remember? I'm the one who DOES NOT WANT TO GET MARRIED, EVER. )
I did NOT want to even date this person exclusively ... I didn't really want to date ANYONE exclusively, because hey, I still didn't know exactly what I wanted and would have never found out if I'd stuck with one person and forced myself to conform to their desires.

Right now, I know what I want -- freedom to be myself -- and hope that will never change.
That still doesn't mean I want to jump into a forever agreement, though. Far far from it. I feel I still need to see more of the world ... in fact, I may never see ENOUGH of the world to justify tying myself down.
I know that I still don't know everything and never will ... that's why I don't want to ever get married, because what if everything changes AGAIN after I've already made the jump?
(I know some people who have married after maturity, but still changed their minds later about what they wanted from life. One actually decided to have a sex change.)

But this thread isn't about marriage. It's about companionship, and how one would go about obtaining it without making a fool of oneself.
And I'm tired of defending my stance about marriage, especially because you are still advising me against it even though I have stated all along that I do not WANT to get married. We're on the same side of the fence ... why argue?

 

Suncatch22 - I like your feistiness. I fought the same battles in my mind when I was your age - how can I do the things I want to do in life, and have quality companionship with the opposite sex at the same time, without getting tied down and smothered in a relationship?

Somehow it worked out - I found an adventurous woman, who, like me, listened to a different drummer than most other people. I proposed to her on the summit pinnacle of a 13,000 foot peak in the Sierras, and we travelled the world together. Many years ago, we spent a month in western China and Tibet with our 9 year old twin daughters (the Chinese, with their "one child only" policy, regarded the girls as magical, the only way to get around the government's policy).

I hope you are lucky enough to find a guy who likes a smart, sexy "tomboy" to spend his life with, even if you don't ever marry.

 

Thanks.
"Feisty" is an adjective I haven't heard applied to me yet ... mostly it's "Stubborn" and "Hotblooded" and ... a few ... okay, a lot ... that are much less favorable.