Saturnalia is almost here

Neither is it polite or honorable to insult something I practice. You may feel it was in jest, but I do not equate the Romans with Nazis, and if you think this then you are being very biased. I could just as easily go by the Roman view that the Celts were a bunch of naked savages covered in blue paint. I know that this wasn't true so I didn't pull that out. I know many people who make "humorous" comments such as yours. They say whatever they want to say - sometimes to piss people off, sometimes to create a controversy, but when they are called on the carpet the response is always "hey sorry you don't have a sense of humor. I was only joking." If you can't take people's offense to your "joking" then I would recommend that you don't joke in that fashion. Simple manners my young man.

That's what happens dude.

Good idea.

I really have no interest in the Celts, so there is nothing to settle on my end other than the fact that you feel like your opinion matters enough that you have to dismiss what other people practice. For example I don't have a huge amount of presonal respect for Christianity. In fact if I DID voice my opinion about Christianity I would expect a good amount of flaming. I don't really care about your opinion. However since you voiced it, expect a response. You said earlier that this forum recognizes freedom of speech, well don't feel persecuted when people don't agree with your speech.

I never said I am speaking for all Pagans, just that Saturnalia is A Pagan holiday. I've been around loong enough to know what's out there. However you seem to be speaking for all Pagans yourself. I do not use any Celtic things at all and I am a Pagan. Many Pagans don't do anything Celtic. I don't care what is or isn't older, and the Celts are not the totality of Paganism. I actually can function quite well omitting all Celtic, Christian, and Jewish (including Kaballah) practices.

I mean seriously look at my original post. I just said that in Ancient Rome practiced Saturnalia and it started on such and such date and here's what they did. What's the big deal? Where do you get off making a reply like that when all I was doing was talking about a holiday. I didn't say anything about "Hail the Romans for destroying barbaric scum." You are the one who felt the need to to be "humorous" whatever that means in this case.

Are we over-reacting? Maybe. But I feel very strongly about my beliefs. If you had made a similar comment in a Christian board what would you expect to happen? Why should my religion be any less serious?

 

Now if you had done your homework you'd know that I do this and worse regularly, just for the entertainment value.

I freely admit to all your charges. But again, my original comment was not meant to offend and I overreacted from the beginning.

 

Hey, this sounds like america today, except the urine part. You would have to go to a fetish club for that sort of thing.

 

yet they were among the last people to invent soap and they washed their clothes in the urine of others.

The last one to invent soap? It only takes one to invent something!

 

Yeah amazingly like the Bush Administration...

Yes but you have to remember that pre-christian cultures tended to be insular. It had been invented by others but they hadn't and didn't use it.

 

The major cultures after Alexander were anything bu insular. It's that kind of thing that made the mystery religions flourish. In fact the two most popular religions in Rome prior to Christianity were the cults of Isis and Mithra.

 

Mithra was not born on Dec25.
That is a hoax email that has duped enough people already.

Anyways...

You mentioned Saturnalia.
Can you please let us all know when this Holiday came about?
Could you also list the other festivals that took place at the same time of year?
I tried to look them all up but there are literally hundreds and thousands if you take centuries of cultures, peoples, religions in all the different regions over the eras.
Wondered if you could list some more of them?

 

Actually Dec 25th was celebrated as the birthday of Mithra. It was formally made such by the 2nd or 3rd century I can't remember which off the top of my head. I knew about this waaaaay before e-mail was big, so I didn't get it from that.

I'm not sure how old Saturnalia is, but as far as I know it was around as long as recorded Roman history (i.e. as far as their books not OUR recorded history)

Here is a small list I have of other festivals around the same time:

December 3 - Festival of Bona Dea 4 - Festival of Minerva 10 - Festival of Lus Mundi 16 - Festival of Sapientia 17 - Eponalia (Feast of Epona) 19 - Opalia (Festival of Ops) 23 - Laurentina (Festival of Acca Larentia (Lara)) 24 - Festival of Saturnalia ends 25 - Dies Natalis Invicti Solis (Birthday of the Invincible Sun God)

 

Whats logical about Mithra returning?

Hes right in line behind Jesus right?

 

The sources I can find tell me Saturnalia is declared a festival in 274 AD.
Three centuries after the birth of Christ.
Some scholars suggesting that it was deliberately put on the same time as the Christian Holiday as a way to 'compete' with them.

One of the issues when trying to compare one to another or another is the 365 day calendar.
I appreciate you took the time to list a small list of festivals and holidays here.
Depending on what region, era and even various subculture... someone, somewhere is having a holiday.
If Christians picked the 19th - someone else did first.
If Christians picked the 24th - someone else did.
Romans pick the 23rd - some barbarians did too somewhere else.

Christmas and Saturnalia are really almost 'self explanatory' if you are looking at any comparisons and competition.
One thing we do know for sure is that once you get to around 300 AD you have a growing Christian community, almost all of them converting from roman paganism (or others).
Naturally, they are using the day for their Holiday purposes while over at Saturnalia they want to use the day for their religion.
Its Ok.
There is no 'problem' in any of this.
I have never quite figured out why any of this poses some sort of 'suspicion' either.
People suspect what?

 

Mas=Death
Christmas=Christ's Death

??????

 

That would indicate Easter but Christmas is short for:

Christ's Mass

Christ = Jesus Christ
Mass = Assembly. People coming together.

Or in other words 'Christs Assembly'.
Christmas.

 

People suspect nothing. All of the Christian holidays were set (along with the current order and edit of the bible) by the Council of Nicea as directed by Emporer Constantine, the self-appointed first Pope of the Holy Roman Church in 325AD. Christian holidays were purposely shuffled and placed over pagan holidays to "Ease the transition that conversion to Christianity will bring about". So Yule became Christmas, Beltaine became Easter, Samhain became All Saints (or more properly All Hallows Eve) and so on and so on. Pagan celebrations were over 1000 years old before Christ was even a rumor.

This is not fantasy, it's historical fact. Look it up.

 

There are definitely earlier references going as far back as the 1st century BCE, but you may be thinking of Macrobius who (I believe) wrote his book "On Saturnalia" around the time you mentioned.

It was one of the state festivals. Oh and the festivals I mentioned are specifically Roman. I know that other places had their own, we could write volumes about all of those.

 

Those are the Celtic holidays, but there are a lot more than those - although the Celtic holidays are in there. The Christians were kind of like the Borg in Star Trek.

When I first got into this stuff I assumed that (probably like a lot of people) while Christianity borrowed a good deal from Paganism that there was still SOME original material there. What shocked me (and this was almost 20 years ago now) was the sheer lack of originality in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Live and learn.

 

And this is what Im talking about. What exactly is the 'gotcha' people are insinuating when these 'revelations' about Holiday placements and timetables?

At least once a week, someone makes a 'expose post' about Christmas being on the same day as some pagan holiday.
Ok.
So whats the 'gotcha' or where is the 'problem'?

You would almost wonder if these people believe that the actual 24 hour period itself eminates some sort of 'magic powers' and that if I celebrate Christs birth on the 25th that 'somehow' some 'pagan ion rays' are causing hypnotic powers or 'cursing' something?
That my Christmas tree will somehow transform into the evil Pan demigod between 8am and 5pm on the 25th?

Others are confused and (inexplicably) say "Christmas is a Pagan Holiday!"
Uhhh?
No, actually its not.
I really dont know how you can figure that and Ive yet to see a detailed explanation about what exactly that can mean or how it can be?

In fairness, early christian church fathers (and modern) do estimate the birth of Christ on about the 25th of December.
Give or take a day or two.
Reasons to complicated for my non-math loving brain to work out in this post.
The point being is that Christmas on the 25th has more reasons than just appropriating already established festival events to Christian ones.

 

That my Christmas tree will somehow transform into the evil Pan demigod between 8am and 5pm on the 25th?


Evil Pan?
Another Christian with History "Blinds" on.

 

ChristMAS not Mass. Mas=Death.

http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/

 

There is no "gotcha", there is no problem, I'm not insinuating anything. What I posted is historical fact and I so stated. The only problem I have with Fundamentalist Christians is that they go on their merry way thinking there was nothing before Christ and nothing else worth knowing since he was crucified. Deny all you want, no one cares. But if you Google "Council of Nicea" you might learn a few things.

An intelligent person can easily see that Christianity was structured for the expressed purpose of world domination, crushing all other beliefs in it's wake. That's what Constantine wanted because he believed it was the only thing that would revive the Roman Empire. And he was correct. It wasn't about Christ, it was about power.

 

Well the magic reason why the 25th (or thereabouts) is the winter solstice. The 25th was Sol Invictus which celebrated the days beginning to get longer. Most cultures had something during this time for obviousl reasons.