You get it! That's it! Congradulations! If you're talking about the labor it took to make the thing let us not forget about computer-run machines to do all the manuel stuff. Then volunteers drive/fly/boat the stuff around and we get it, everyone places an order, things are mass produced when there is mass demand, with careful watch of resources. blah blah
In response KBlaze I will say two things. First , remember I think your intentions are in the right direction and I'm not trying to change what I think is your positive and progressive moral or political direction. I just want you to see matters clearly so you won't make errors along the way and so others won't manipulate you through your misconceptions. Second, I want you to think carefully about the following. Whenever any human being makes a choice or decision or takes a voluntary action there are only two possibilities. The choice, decision or action is taken either for some reason or for no reason. Well in point of fact, obviously, our choices, decisions and actions are not taken for no reason. Otherwise they would just be random. We couldn't ever survive. In point of fact they are taken on the basis of desires. Every voluntary action -- or inaction -- every choice to act or not act -- derives from a desire. Otherwise it woudn't be a voluntary action, right? OK so desires are the basis of every voluntary choice, decision and action. Now where does this leave us? Well it leaves us pretty much back where we started. We can say the same thing about desires that we just said about choices decisions and actions. Either desires come from somewhere (or arise for reasons) or they come from nowhere (arise for no reasons). Well they can't come from nowhere or arise for no reasons because then again they (our desires) would be random and meaningless, as would be any choices decisions or actions following from them. They wouldn't bear any meaningful relationship to material circumstances if they came from nowhere or arose at random. Once again, we couldn't even survive. To say that desires and, with them, voluntary choices decisions and actions come from nowhere and arise for no reason -- just does not ccorrespond to reality. This is not the way the world works. But -- if desires and with them voluntary choices decisions and action DO arise and occur for reasons -- and this is what really happens, all the time -- if you REALLY took a voluntary action for a REASON -- then your choice decision and action was NOT FREE. Your will is not free. It's influenced by government -- and everything else. To deal effectively with reality you have to face that fact. Free will it is true has been debated for a long time. But it's not because the answer for all intents and purposes is not in. The answer IS in, and the answer is that free will makes no sense when you think about it and does not exist. It's just that people don't want to accept this fact. WHY don't they want to accept it? Because they want to perpetrate false moral agendas to manipulate other people. "You deserve such and such because you acted out of free will". "God gave you free will so you're going to go to hell because you did such and such." This is the kind of crap Libertarians and Conservatives and religious fundamentalists always dish out. "You deserve to live a shit life because you have free will and made the wrong choices." It's the lie of the millenia. The more important point however is NOT understanding that free wil does not exist. The more important point IS understanding the false moral proclamations and actions made in the name of free will. Truly IMMORAL proclamations and actions. The shit used by conservatives libertarians fundamentalists and the like to deceive and manipulate others and keep them in subjugation. So, naturally, KBlaze you want to ask me "Well SDS if I don't have free will and nobody deserves anything on that basis where does this leave me? Where does it leave us?" It leaves you right back where you started. With your DESIRES. And the desires of others to contend with. Some good, some bad. Some honest and some wearing the cloak of false morality. Your desires to accomplish whatever you want to accomplish. But with a much clearer horizon, a much clearer understanding of what's really going on. I also realize this stuff, what I've just said, is kind of different from most people's usual interests and concerns with organizational issues. But this doesn't diminish its importance. Think about it. It could come in very handy. You don't even have to comment just let it simmer in your brain for awhile. Some day it will all hit you and you will understand.
Alright. Very thought provoking. When you put it that way, the free will debate is pretty much solved. That is true that everything influences everything, and nobody truly makes a decision or does any action on their own. So there is no free will; I can accept that; some people call it God's plan and I'd agree with that depending on your concept of God. Anyway, you're also correct that government influences me, but it is an influence I would rather not have. Infact, I have always had a slight distaste for any "authority" figure, not some trouble making adolescent distaste, but more of a gut feeling that this isn't right and the authority is fake. And I still stand behind those positions. When I get down to it, the only things in existence are myself, and everything that isn't me, ie, inanimate objects and other individual beings. A government is neither an object nor an individual being, it is a mental concept that, I believe, blocks us from our full ability to interact with individuals, and blocks us in some ways from living a peaceful life according to my desires. So yes, it has influenced me to the point of me not wanting to be influenced by it, and to the point of me scheming ways out of it. Without these conceptual blocks, we would have more direct influence from our interactions with society, and, I think, would grow more as a people. Eventually, if it happens tomorrow or four thousand years, I believe people will come to live in a state of you and other beings, not races or countries or religions, just the fact that we are all life forms, and then it will be apparent we don't need these divding blocks of states or monies. Until then, I don't think I can look at those ideas as anything else but ideas, ideas that slow everyone's quest for their own desires. Peace.
well kBlaze i do get it ive gotten it for years!! the problem is not every body does,has! and in the abcense of that it is not possible (sad to say) so lets just keep doing are best!! witch i know you are making a concsios effort and for that i aplaud you!!!!
Hey, thanks a lot man! Hearing that's worth all the effort I've made times two. And yes, I've been called a dreamer and an idealist many times, been told it's never going to happen, even after a huge discussion with a friend of mine, he said, "Kevin, I'm on board, but, I just don't think it will happen." And I'm glad eventually that will be the root cause of all negative outlooks on this idea. People think it just won't work. And sadly, that is the only reason why it won't work. When people wake up to THAT, then well get somewhere, when people realize their own infinite power. My favorite part about these sort of debates is when I get branded "idealist." I laugh out loud at that statement; it shows me how backwards we currently are, when those who worship men in suits in a white house, and depend on green paper to live, and leave it to a paper diploma to tell them how smart they are, call ME the idealist. Haha, as far as I'm concerned, I'm the realist. In time, my friends, in time. Everyone, no matter what side you're on, agrees humanity is headed for the shitter, or already in it, although I try to degrade us as little as possible. Historicly, crap can only get so bad until people say, hey! wait a second! The last time it happened majorly was I think back in ole' 1776. And that was in the West, the newest established region. So the next "revolution" or evolution in our way of life has only one place to happen, the entire planet. Peace.
KBlaze this all sounds great to me. I share your motivations, ideals -- and also probably your predisposition. And I can't resist saying that what I said above about the myth of free will being used to promote false and immoral agendas by any number of individuals, organizations and institutions will serve you well to put into concrete and incisive terms those gut feelings of yours that many authorites are fake as, indeed, a little reflection convincingly shows they are. Thanks for having taken the time to think about what I said.
Oh defenetly. Haha man for days I tried to think of a reason for free will, for instance, since I personally think all time is happening right now and we're just in a fraction of it at the moment, perhaps we are placed in situations that will lead to our "deciding" to do a certain thing, so in a way we are creating our free will that is going along with the construct of time, but no. goddamn it. it's impossible. It's actually sort of a good thing, it's like, no matter what, what happens will happen, and I can live comfortably like that.
Fuck yeah! Sorry Blaze I only just noticed this thread! How does it start? It's just a website, I'm about to sling the idea out across those 'find a coder' sites. To register you enter your personal details (including address), the skills you want and offer and the goods you want and offer (these would often be raw materials for finished or developed items eg, wood for furniture). Every user is displayed on a map as a blob but you can search for particular skills or goods and the users with your requests will be displayed. When you click on a blob, all that user's info will be displayed on a part of the screen, the goods and skills they want and offer and their contact e-mail, phone number etc is all there.
Yes, my apologies; I've been off the ball on responding or posting lately. My fingers are too tired from having the same debates. More to come soon enough, but yeah, the website, it would be that simple. Peace.
Kblaze To me there is the same problem with your form of anarchy as I have with other types of anarchy, which is that human kind has to grow up and act maturely for it to work, and I don’t see that happening any time soon. The other thing is your seeming denial of the interconnection of so many things which need people working together rather than just do things for themselves. You have a grand theory with grand themes but what about the detail For example to take just one thing – “And about taking out the garbage, do it yourself and quit bitching” Can you explain in detail how this would work?
There'd be a dump, you pick up your garbage, and walk or drive or bike to the dump, and there you go. I really don't see too much more detail in the activity than that. Hell, you could make an activity out of it, take a nice stroll in the sun... or maybe "The Mexicans" should just keep doing it. Most things would probably be more biodegradeable, that way you can litter freely without worry. So garbage dumps wouldn't quite exist how you see them now. Sorry folks I was just looking at this and reailzed a question was not answered...not that anybody gives a crap but I recently linked this so I had to complete it. Thanks a bunch sorry
