So, a fellow at my job asked me out ... he has a crush on me and I have a casual crush on him, but we are both really shy. Whenever I ask him to do anything, he agrees enthusiastically, but by the time evening rolls around he's had an anxiety attack and cannot leave home. He says he could have the best, closest friend in the world and still feel lonely ... that even if we started a relationship he might still feel lonely. Meanwhile, of course, I am not exactly a whole person myself ... but I would like to have a friend. It's just hard to have a friend, much less a friend who would like to date you, if the dynamic is that screwed up. I'd just tell him to forget it, except I do like him and I know he likes me. We get along quite well and our conversations (at work and over AIM) make us both happy ... we just can't ever seem to get together. This is also causing HUGE tension between me and my best friend, who had asked me out a few weeks ago ... I'm not ready to date HIM yet and it makes me feel like such a whore. Add this to the fact that my ex called me last night to apologize, to say (in all earnesty!) that he regrets hurting me ... and I forgave him. Now my friend, my mother, and my roomate are all pissed at me for forgiving him, since they say he is lying and using me. I don't see how forgiveness hurts. NOT forgiving him WAS hurting me ... and besides, it's not as though I CONDONED the shitty things he did, just FORGAVE them. I also did not take him back, in any sense of the word. If he crawls around in a few years and wants to be friends, I might consider it, because our friendship used to be very nice ... but a.) I wouldn't do it RIGHT NOW, and b.) it is a HUGE "might", even years from now! I know this man very well and know he is sincere in his apology ... it by no means makes everything (or in fact anything) "better" but I just appreciate the sentiment. I don't see how forgiving him is making a cuckold out of me. Agh. I sometimes want to just isolate myself from the rest of humanity. Completely.
Suncatch - you certainly have a lot of guys interested in you - that is because you are pretty, smart, and yes, Feisty. Many guys like someone who has a lot of life in them - and you certainly do. You can accept your ex's apology, but don't take him back. I don't know which ex this is, bit if it is the one I think it is, what he did is really bad. But forgiveness is a great quality. Your new guy seems like trouble, unless you can move him out of his shell. We are all alone in the end, but that does not mean that we cannot connect closely with other human beings in a quality relationship during our lives. Hopefully if you pick up with him you won't end up being his lay psychiatrist throughout your relationship with him.
Yeah, I don't want to be anyone's shrink ... goodness knows I need one myself But that's just the thing -- I'm pretty messed up, and I need someone who will be patient with me ... who better than someone else who is pretty much on the same level and would basically need the same kind of patience in return? We seem to have worked it out a little, in our conversations ... might actually get together (as in, having coffee and hanging out like friends -- no sex, more on that in a minute) after work tomorrow! This guy is very nice, once you get past his problems ... he's smart, and funny, and very considerate, not to mention anti-traditional and all that jazz. His major pros and cons are more or less the same thing: 1.) He likes monogamy, and 2.) He's not very sexual. The pros of this are clear: he's not going to cheat on me, and he's not going to pressure me into having sex. The cons are, he might be really weird and possessive, and ... um ... well ... we might not EVER "get it on." (I have problems with kissing, and he has problems with sex.) Clearly I don't want to jump into a relationship that would become sexual immediately ... but EVENTUALLY would be nice. When I'm "normal" I do love physical affection, even just cuddling, and want to have it in my relationship. For the record: I WILL NOT take my ex back. (It was the poet.) I still care about him but he is poison for me, so ... no.
Suncatch - you definitely do not want someone who is going to be possessive. You are too much of a free spirit for that. Take it slow with him. Be friends, and if sex develops, enjoy it. Sometimes guys who seem shy and "not sexual" really rev up when the motor starts running. It is often not good to have a relationship with someone at work. If it goes badly, you still see him every day.
I don't THINK he is possessive -- he hasn't given me any signs of such. I just have had VERY bad experiences with monogamy and don't trust a monogamist to not be possessive, even if he (or she) shows no signs of it at first. Face it, the basis of the entire monogamous system, is possession ... This guy HAS been uncomfortable about the idea of hanging out with me and my friends, but only because he doesn't want my FRIENDS to feel left out! (From someone else I would think that was a bullshit excuse, but it's honestly the kind of guy he is!) I PLAN to take it slow, no matter who I end up with. I'm just afraid that in this case, SLOW will mean NEVER ... He has similar issues with sex as I do with kissing. It gives him panic attacks and he said he once fainted! Ergo he has not been sexual with his girlfriends since. (For the record -- he is several years older than I am, and has only had two girlfriends -- both relationships lasted multiple years, and he has been COMPLETELY single for two years since the latest one.) I know it's a bad idea to date someone you live or work with, but honestly we don't see each other unless we go looking. He tends to work in the basement/stockrooms (this is a big bookstore) while I am a cashier upstairs. Besides ... I REALLY REALLY doubt that even if we had a relationship that ended in a breakup, that we would have the kind of breakup that breeds animosity.
Suncatch - Panic attacks about sex? Is it performance anxiety? That is usually cured by letting the sex creep up in a relaxed setting, perhaps with a little (but not a lot) of wine or weed. But you should (if you want to head this way with this guy) just wait for when "the moment is right", to use a line from a viagra, levitra or cialis ad. If he is too weird, then move on to someone else,
Woman, seriously, you need to get your head checked. I'm not saying that poly/open is bad or anything, but that you have to judge monogamy/people into monogamy like that sucks ass. It's not about possession or control, it's about the fact that you only want to be with one person. I worry for you. You don't sound like you're in a healthy enough place to be in a relationship to me. I know you want to be in a relationship, but sweetie, you are hurting bad. Yes, there are some things you can only get through by actually trying them, but I think you need to figure out healthier approaches to sex and relationship first. Probably with the help of a therapist/psychologist. I know it takes a lot of searching to find one who can actually help you, who knows what they're talking about and who connects with you in an positive, effective manner. Just because it's not easy doesn't mean you should give up though. Let me guess, you're going to say something along the lines of "but that's not what I'm saying". Maybe it's not what you're intending to say but it's what we're hearing. Just because it wasn't your intent, doesn't mean that it's not what comes through. Kind of like a Freudian slip, if you will. Think abou what others have said to you in all those threads where you feel like they aren't hearing what you're saying - maybe those words do have some real relevance and weight to your situation.
First of all, I second everything ihmurria said. On the topic of monogamists, well, sure, a monogamous partner will get upset if you decide you want to have sexual relations with someone else, but most will not get upset if you want to hang out with your friends (of same or opposite sex). The key there is the foundation of trust -- a LOT of people out there have personal insecurities that cause them to have a hard time trusting anyone to not hurt them... And that's not just monogamists, cuz how many people are out there trying polyamory because at least that way their partner can't hurt them by cheating? You can't judge someone by whether they prefer monogamy or polyamory or asexuality or whatever -- you find fucked up people in ever category. However, the fact that this guy makes comments that suggest he will not be able to open up to you emotionally (will always feel lonely, etc.) suggests that he will have more than average difficulty in trusting anyone. It does take a lot of trust to be comfortable opening oneself up emotionally, to feel connected rather than lonely with another person... But the fact that he doubts his ability to ever do that with you is a huge red flag. As for you, it may be a matter of us getting a skewed perspective because you only post about things that are bugging you, not to say "hey, all is going well!" But it does sound like what you really really need is some time without anything more than completely platonic friendships. Getting into a relationship right now -- regardless of whether/how many issues the other person may have -- will do NOTHING but complicate everything that you've been discussing as things you need to work on. 1. Why do you say you're not ready to date him YET? 2. If you really want to date this other friend but need to work on yourself before dating him, why are you considering dating ANYONE now? 3. If you really feel that you are ready to date at all now, why do you keep this other friend on the line as a "not yet"? Either tell this guy that he is a great friend but you don't feel you and he would make a good pair (so "not at all" instead of "not yet"), or tell the other guy the same thing you told this friend (not ready to date now). I would be hurt right now too if I were in that friend's shoes. I would feel like you lied to me about not being ready to date yet, instead of being honest about not being interested, because obviously you're ready to date not, just don't want to date (this person). That hurts the trust that is essential as the basis of any relationship. That hurts more than an honest "sorry, I'm not interested in you like that", as hard as it is to tell anyone that (I know, I've pulled the "not ready to date now" approach because it seemed like an easier let-down, and it wound up biting me in the ass). How would he be using you? Is there anything that you're leaving out? A lot of people think "forgive and forget" when they hear "forgive". Forgiving him is healthy for you, regardless of the sincerity of his appology. Forgiving is a matter of releasing the anger and pain that you've built up around his past actions. We would all be healthier people if we could forgive more. But, I don't think anyone should ever (or really can) forgive AND forget. Forgiving him does not mean that you are opening your heart back up to him -- that would be stupid unless you develop amnesia about his past actions. I feel like everything I could say from here would lead me on a big rambling sidetrack... But those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it... You can let the pain and anger go for your own sanity without forgetting. In some situations, people can move past really hurtful behaviors, but that takes a lot of work and involves getting into the root causes of the behavior -- "forgetting" the behavior would be completely counter-productive. ** Oh, yeah, the point of the above paragraph is that, based on the little info you've posted here, my guess is that your friend, mother, and roommate are assuming that by forgiving, you will "forgive and forget" and let him right back into your life... Perhaps you could clarify to them what YOU mean by "forgiving" him.
Yeah, I get it. Dawn, you are right about the forgive/forget thing. I think everyone in this situation assumes that I am going to let him back in because I let him back in before ... but I think I've finally learned from that mistake and won't repeat it. I do feel as though I have been misunderstood before because, for the sake of brevity, I've previously left out information (it's nearly impossible to remember to list everything, much less ACTUALLY list everything, on one of these threads!) or simplified situations or even simplified explanations. Bad idea, because it leads to what might come across as Freudian slips, and people thinking I am an abusive stupid whore. :& As far as monogamy: I've seen the flaws in poly -- TRUST me! I'm definitely not into that any more. Neither am I a cheater who wants to jump every man she sees ... I can BE in a one-on-one relationship without messing around, and in fact I've almost always been able to be completely faithful. I'm just not comfortable with the labeling involved ... it seems (from personal experience and obvious secondhand observations and accounts) that calling someone else Boyfriend or Girlfriend leads almost immediately to a false sense of ownership ... and it oddly makes people more insecure. Take for example my own (main) experience (there have been others): guy asks me out, I agree ==> he immediately forbids me from talking to any of my exes (of which at the time I had a grand total of two and was not talking to either), insists I take down photos of and cease correspondence with my favorite musician (a man who has known my family since he was a teenager, is exactly eighteen years older than I am, and is happily married to someone else), refuses to let me go home to visit my mom because I might get together with my ex who lived in my hometown, gets uncomfortable when I talk to ANY other men (including my college professors!), and grills me about my day EVERY DAY. Before we labeled each other as "going out", he had been seemingly stable, easygoing, and well-adjusted ... it was just the labeling that drove him crazy, and drove me away! Most recent secondhand experience: Abovementioned best friend's former girlfriend forbids him from speaking to me, although neither of us had feelings for each other, because she could not stand the thought of him speaking to another girl ... but before they labeled one another, she and I had been friends! There were more experiences within this situation but I'm not comfortable listing them ... please just take my word for it ... And more. ALMOST EVERY monogamous, LABELED couple I have ever known or known of has had serious problems with this kind of insecurity, justified or not.
And about my best friend: We have and have long had an emotional bond but not a physical attraction. In other words we love one another but don't have romantic "Feelings" for one another. Therefore we sometimes joke (more than half-seriously) about living together as companions when we're old (or at least older), and adopting Somalian orphans or whatnot, but have agreed in the meantime to explore our options. He has had girlfriends and is in fact interested in a particular (other) girl right now ... and we've cleared the situation up -- he was apparently afraid more of losing our friendship to the abovementioned insecurities than he was jealous of the other guy. I NEVER once jerked him around or said ANYTHING misleading to him ...
Not to sound dismissive of your experiences, but I do think you've had a skewed set of experiences. Part of that, honestly, may have to do with your age -- not implying anything about you, but the average maturity level of your set of peers (if you're 19, I'm guessing most people you hang out around are in the 18-24 range). Yeah, when I was 18, I got involved with a guy who never wanted to go out but would freak out if I said I was going to go out with some girl friends... Sort of like someone posted in a recent thread -- he was sure that if I went dancing with "the girls", I'd end up dancing with some guy, and one thing would indefinitely lead to another thing, and blah blah blah. Ironically, considering my comment about age above, he was 32 when I was 18. He was also clinically depressed, though I wonder how much of that was actual depression and how much was just an utter lack of effective coping skills. Anyway, yeah, I've seen other situations where people just got stupid. Though, to be honest, I can't say I've ever personally seen or heard a first hand account of having dealt with quite the level of bs that you described with the guy who didn't want you to visit your own mother! At the same time, I've seen couples with a healthy level of trust... My fiance never complained when I lived alone and had a male friend come over to hang out & watch movies. Most of my fiance's friends are females. He has friends who have/had roommate(s) of the opposite sex, despite being in a long distance relationship. I don't know what to say -- I'm not really sure right now how to describe a lack of possessiveness (cold meds make me less than articulate!). I won't say that I don't have any insecurities. I don't think that being in a labeled relationship increased my level of insecurities, though it did provide a new outlet. And, being that my fiance and I were already pretty much best friends before we became anything more, we already had a certain level of trust... So I was able to express some insecurities to him that I kept hidden from others. So, he saw more of my insecurities, but that doesn't mean that the relationship created that, it just created a greater level of trust so that I could let down my front a bit. But, he has his insecurities too, and we have compatible levels/types... I don't believe in soul mates, I believe in finding a compatible match of neuroses! And, yes, I do at times get jealous. I've even gotten jealous of a friend of mine -- she and my fiance shared a hotel room at a conference that they both went to. But, the thing is, I was jealous that she got to spend time with him -- not because I thought anything was going on or that he's mine and she shouldn't hang out with him, but because I wanted to be there to spend time with him (part of that is because we're doing the long distance thing, it's been a year and a half now and will last until this May). Sorry to ramble so much, I'm not even sure if I said anything useful to your situation... Yay for drugs!
That was definitely a case in which saying a little bit caused the reader (me, at least) to read into your comment something completely different than what was apparently really going on! Hope I didn't offend you by suggesting that you were misleading him in some way... Saying that he had asked you out a few weeks ago suggested to me that he did have feelings for you, and given my experience of having ruined a friendship by deflecting his romantic interest with the "not ready to get into a relationship now", then dating someone else not long thereafter, well, that's what I read into that... (I hope that was coherent!)
who on earth in this thread, or any other, has called you a "stupid abusive whore"? Because I certainly never said those words, nor (insofar as I can read) implied them. Those are not regular monogamist couples. Those are cases of ABUSIVE people and CONTROL FREAKS. They are -NOT- normal, nor average in any way. Not one of my boyfriends has ever told me to not do something or not see one. Nor have I ever told a bf to not do something or not see someone (other than not say, putting his hands down my pants when I wasn't ready). Not even when my poly bf (who I was monogamous with and he with me, though he described himself as poly at heart) had a female friend staying with him for a few weeks that he used to essentially be fuckbuddies with. Relationships only work when there is trust. Poly/monogamous, whatever. Trust is a requirement. And I really hate that you have to judge monogamy and those who practise it so very very harshly just because you have had a couple of bad experiences. And, I still worry that you are not ready/healthy enough for a relationship. It's like every little tiny negative thing that's ever happened to you vastly affects your world view. It's not how most people react, and it's a little worrisome.
The dirty-whore thing happened to me in a private message -- and several times over AOL. By several different people, nonetheless. Thus it must be true? :& I think it about myself. I abuse myself for it. I know I cope badly. It's because I've had bad luck, and I've had bad luck because I've allowed myself to be abused, and instead of calling it abuse, I blame myself and bring yet another bad situation -- and more bad luck -- upon myself. I did the right thing. I told this boy that I was not good enough for him, that I was fucked up and would only hurt him, but he deserved better. He was a bit sad -- said he knew I was fucked up , that he was fucked up too (the matching neuroses thing, which by the way I also believe), and that he was willing to try anyway because he liked me. But ... I still walked away ... Now I am second-guessing myself that perhaps I was selfish? Either way, I'm a monster ... but perhaps the lesser of two monsters ... ?
