No need for a 'saviour'

Campbell

OOOOO a schism...You demand the salvation line.
Salvation is why christ died on the cross. [you say]
They are only 'playing' you say.. occam suggests you are a fanatic.

Occam thinks christ died on the cross cause he was executed for sedition against roman authority.

If he was god on earth, and knew what was going to happen.
why did he say. 'father, why hast thou foresaken me?'

Occam

 

At many levels, this is true. Wealthy criminals go unpunished while millions of children die from preventable disease and starvation. At another level, those same children might live happy or at least complete lives, whereas the wealthy criminal has an empty life devoid of any meaning. We don't know *how* people are punished. The Bible shows us that God can be very inventive, but usually, God's punishment simply flows in the form of natural consequence. You (meaning *a person*) might not get punished for cheating on your exams in college, but when you get to the job market, you might lose your job for not having the knowledge. Or perhaps you might not get "punished" for cheating on your spouse, but the emotional fallout from the affair destroys your family from within leaving your relationships shattered.

God promises that justice will be served. What He doesn't tell us is exactly *when* that will happen. We demand immediate justice. God is far more patient, far more fair, and honestly, far more exacting in administering justice. God promises a final, but not immediate, solution to all that is wrong in the world.

Another thing to consider is that if God is truly unjust, then there is no such thing as justice. Without an unchanging standard, justice becomes arbitrary and nothing more than opinion. So there would be *no* justice at all. We can't even discuss the concept as the concept itself is vacuous. Is this what you believe, Occam? It might just be a psychological flaw on my part, but I really can't believe that there is no justice in the world.

Actually, *wanting* a father that is close is a bit of a misnomer. It is what I have, but not always what I want. I am sure that many Christians would agree with me.

As to intervention, I don't know why you would think that God would have to make some sort of "supernatural" intervention to make sure that justice was served. Sometimes, intervention would just be a slight nudge. Here's a poem I like:

For want of a nail, the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe, the horse was lost.
For want of a horse, the rider was lost.
For want of a rider, the message was lost.
For want of a message, the battle was lost.
For want of a battle, the kingdom was lost.
... all for the want of a nail.

God doesn't need to swoop in and make a stink to bring justice, sometimes, all He has to do is move a nail. What I mean is that perhaps God intervenes all the time, we just don't know it.

Not an overpowering argument, I know, but still a thought to consider.

 

Christ was NEVER suprised about his execution. He knew very well what was going to happen:
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/why_hast_thou_forsaken_me.shtml



Also, interestingly enough, that verse is a messianic prophecy. Here it is in Psalm 22:1

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

(Psalm was written hundreds of years before Christ)

 

Life forever is the closest thing to hell occam can think of.


don't really care , occam , if the exact you exist forever or not . the prayer is for Life to be more and more , on and on , in balance . life in motion defeats entropy . do you razor that ?

 

Jesus was good unto death, and Jesus was part of the three and one God , yet, the Father knew things that Jesus did not know.

 

Going to heaven or hell isn't the point of the christian faith. Making the world a better place is the point. Faith is action, not belief. Occam If (A) there is a god, and (b) there is an afterlife, and you are a (c) good person who (d)doesn't want an afterlife then I'm sure oblivion would be an option.

Considering the views most cultures have of heaven, I'd prefer oblivion. Singing praises constantly isn't as appealing as say, Valhalla. If there's a heaven, I hope it's like Valhalla, or maybe the Muslim paradise.

If it isn't fun and interesting, oblivion would be the best bet. Again, while it's fun or stupid to speculate, this really isn't the point.

 

Well anytime you base your belief on feelings this is the kind of things you will hear. And accepting Christ to have eternal life is at the very core of the Christian faith. And when Christians pratice their faith, this is what makes the world a better place. And the Bible tells us there are no good people, and that are best works are but filth rags before the throne of God.

 

Tikoo

Thats called greed.

Occam

 

c34

But there is only one god. You suggest there is more than one.
A father and a son. [and oh yeh,, the holy ghost...lol]
Thats polytheism. Unless god has mpd
You see how screwed up cristianity is.???
Cant even get it's lies right.

Have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe.
You are wrong?
And jesus was just a good man in a bad situation.?

Occam

 

Thats right its Polytheism.
And thank you for breezing your amazing intellect and comprehension this way so that I would think of that for the first time ever.
After all, I just believed what I was told without questioning it.
Good work.
Its like you are some sort of genius or some kind of spiritual mastermind i dunno?

 

So you agree. christianity is a polythiestic religion?

Occam

[ this one ignors your purile sarcasm. Occam KNOWS there are millions
smarter than he is. You suggest none, are smarter than you]

 

no matter how many parts a christian makes of the divine , the One Will is all . the god parts do not have conflict . it is more real , however , to simply have existence to love without separateness and beyond confusion , oh , as a child .

 

Or Trinitarianism...

Or has persons in a hypostatic union...

Or you do not understand hypostasis or Wisdom theology, and apparently do not care to...

All the time.

Highly unlikely. If we know anything about Him, then we know that He claimed divinity. Being "just" a "good man" is right out as a possibility...

 

Highly unlikely. If we know anything about Him, then we know that He claimed divinity. Being "just" a "good man" is right out as a possibility...


i might wonder about that , and i can be simply content with 'what a friend we have in jesus' . i'm not so content with the facts that are as written in another language long ago . it's better to know by love ? as a christian may know the divine by love , this way of knowledge is peaceful and not universally authorative .

 

That's your decision, but before you simply dismiss something because it is "old" and in another language (that is still spoken today), you might want to judge the idea on its merits and not on the method of transmission.

It's better in some ways, I agree. A loving and intuitive approach to dealing with people could ease much of the suffering in the world. However, when asking about the factualness of historical events, well... "knowing" by love doesn't really cut the mustard. Then it becomes nothing more than opinion, and opinions can be wrong.

 

my opinion is both heartfelt and harmless . i'm intent upon prayer and a philosophy of feeling . in this philosophy , love is a power for knowing . i really don't read much anymore

and certainly anyone can note history
is plagued with liars and distortion

in feeling , the quest of god truth has only
a single boundary . the unknowable .

i'd consider the true and exact words of jesus
to be unknowable , his spirit meaning is , and that's
all a christian will really hold on to .

 

Heartfelt, definitely. Harmless? Well, only if you are right. If you are incorrect, though, and you are misguided by your feelings (or worse, misguide others), then it is definitely *not* harmless. The scripture says to test all things in light of scripture and hold fast to that which is good. If your philosophy doesn't fall in line with the scripture, then you are leading people astray of Christ's teachings. Certainly not harmless.

Sorry, but that's a cop-out. Doesn't mean that there are not lies and distortion on historical events, but the above is simply an excuse to *ignore* history. Afterall, if you can dismiss a single event because it *might* be historically innacurate, then you can dismiss *any* event for the same reason. You can't drop what you don't agree with just because it might be a lie. You have to be able to prove that it is a lie before you can dismiss the event. Your answer is more like an ostrich syndrome than anything resembling a well reasoned answer.

And if my "feelings" and your "feelings" are opposed and mutually exclusive? How are we to know who is correct? For example, you feel like God loves everyone; I feel God hates everyone. We cannot both be correct. How do we know who is correct?

Huh? Please explain.

 

Alsharad

Are you serious..?
'right out' as in impossible, as in an absolute?

Whats wrong with being 'just' a good man?
As sentient rational beings. Thats the highest state we can achieve.
As mortal or imortal. As man or god.

Occam suggests you have no idea who jesus was.
You say he is more than a man. occam says he shat by the side of the road like everyone else.
If he did not. then he is not one of us. 'a human being'
If he was part of this trinatariast alien conspiracy
And occam is suffering some bad attack of hypostasis
We must prepare for the god of love to smite us.

For look what happened to the canites. And we do far worse.
WE mock him..
No longer is his doggeral taught in schools.
This is the greatest offence, the innocent no longer have religious garbage stuffed in their heads before they can reason.

Occam

 

alsharad , i don't feel that god loves you . it's not my concern . i don't want to know .

 

Occam, if you knew the Old Testament you would of understood why Jesus cried out and said, 'FATHER, WHY HAST THOU FORESAKEN ME?' He was quoteing Psalm 22:1 In his last breath He was telling the world who he was. Jesus was the promised one, and He fulfilled the prophecy by saying those words. Everything Jesus did, was related to the fulfilling of the prophecies of the Old Testament. Jesus was not executed for sedition, and that is why Pilot washed his hands and said, I find no fault in this man.