Fundementalism

I respect anyone's right to be a veg*n, but I do not respect any veg*n spreading propaganda that is not even half true.Examples are that being Veg*n is healthier or that the land that is currently used to raise livestock could be used for horticulture.

 

It is healthier. Just like omnis, there's healthy ones and unhealthy ones, if you do your research, a vegan will be much healthier, without as many cancer-causing agents, hormones, or saturated fats.

And yes, much of the land could be used for horticulture. I agree that not all livestock land is suitable for plant growth, but thousands of potato plants can be grown on an acre, only a few cows can.

 

Hello Sunburst.I have not heard from you for a while.Is that top photo in there meant to be something Vulvic?
Anyway I have done the research and I am completly unconvinced.Remember the SDA couple in NZ who manslaughtered their baby boy because this woman's breast milk contained no B12?Saturated fats are also found in vegetable sources.Coconut oil is 92% saturated fat.All margarines contain saturated fat.If they did not, it would still be liquid.See also:

http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23655

Not all meat contains hormones by any means.

 

it's true that you can be just as unhealthy on a vegan diet as you can be on an omnivorous diet. (ie you could just eat potato chips all the time.) however, i think it is an overwhelming tendency for Veg*ns to be healthier just because we *think* about what we're eating and what we need a bit more. this is especially true in college, where the average person just grabs mcdonald's or some other such non-food. yes, you should take a b12 supplement if you're vegan. so what? that's not difficult.

and i rather enjoy reducing my risk of colon cancer. the consequences of that one suck big time.

 

What scientific research has been done to suggest that going veg*n will lower your chance of getting cancer of the colon?

 

I agree with you bilby, and I dont think its very productive to argue with someone on their diet, especially if the descision was made on ethical grounds, I think certain animal rights advocay groups have convinced some people that not eating meat will automatically make them healthier, which couldn't be further from the truth. Veg***ns need to be more careful with their diet than anyone.

I'll go ahead and repost this...

Point 1: Hormonal injection: Any animal natuarally has hormones and thousands of chemials in it, I dont
see why injecting an animal with extra proteins and hormones to increase its size (If an animal is larger, less have to be killed to meet demand) is unnatural, I think the point he
was trying to raise was lack of dietary sustainence.

Point 2: Dietary sustainence: While its completely true that you can meet the basic amount of protein a person needs with a veggie diet, Iron deficancy is a major problem with a vegitarian diet. I'm sure you've hear that certain vegetables contain adequete amounts of iron, while this is true, Iron doesn't metabolise from vegetable sources very effeciently,
If your a vegetarian, you need to take supplements. (not very natural, but I don't have a problem with that) b12 cannot be obtained by a vegan diet without supplements, and neither can vitamin D. If your a vegeterian, you should be very careful to eat wisely, and vegetarianism isn't a inherently more healy alternative to eating an omnivorous diet. Please consider your dietary needs before doing anything rash. its very dificult to maintain a proper diet without eating meat, and you should consult a doctor.

point 3: land usage: Another falacy is that if nobody consumed meat, we would be able to feed the entire world. This is naive and simplistic. Primarily you should consider that two thirds of the land mass on earth is not suitable for farming, and this is the land that is primarly used for graising animals, raised for food purposes.

Something else you should consider is that even if the land the US converted from grasing teritory to farming land (which wouldn't be very good for the enviorment) we still wouldnt be able to feed the world with it. shipping that much produce would be astomoically expensive, and even if it were possible from an economical standpoint, most vegetables rot fairly quickly, and wouldn't be able to be shipped and distriubeted halfway acros the world anyway.

(edit)

I'm not trying to talk anyone outta anything, I'm just saying you should be especially careful with a vegetarian diet.

Later everyone.

 

I think everyone that has been on here arguing all the tie should read a book called "The Food Revolution". I think its author is John Robbins. He make a lot of very good points ancites all of his source which are all legitimate. Meat eating has been linked to a lot of cases of colon cancer. One of the reasons for this is the way our intestines are made which can actually contain meat that has been there for years to putrify. There has been 12 year vegans that have gotten colonics and traces of meat hace still been found in theintestine after 12 years. think about that. Vitamin b12 has only become a problem with the veggie diet because of how well we have to wash our vegetables now because of all the pestcides that are being used. Yes Vit. D is a little different however you can get some of it just by simply getting some sunlight. As for iron you can get plenty. I have never had a problem with iron and I take no supplements.


Here's one for you meateaters. You know the calcium everyone says you need from milk. The calcium found in milk doesn't absorb into your body that well. Here one for the people on atkins. All that protein intake actually hinders your calcium absorbtion some more.

Statistically, the caucasian race(America and Europe) is the majority of people who drink milk after infancy. Most places after infancy people will never have another drop of milk. Another interesting fact is also of those places where milk is not drank after infancy osteoporosis doesn't exist.

There is a Dr. (Dr. Ornish I think) who has proven time and time again with patients who have had heart problems and heart disease even after heart attacks that has reversed heart disease in the patients by getting them to eat a plant based diet.

Another point......It's not always hormones pumped into these animals that make them grow. It's antibiotics which scientists are starting to find is a very bad thing. There is an antibiotic that was developed in the mid 1990's that is now becoming obsolete because of it being pumped into animals. Places in Europe are actually forbidding this because they have discovered it as well.

Another health thing with eating meat. Did you know that at least 1/3 of every Alheimers case is misdiagnosed when it is actually Cruetzfeld Jacobs (sp?) disease. Which is the human variant of mad cows disease. It basically turns your brain into swiss cheese. It can stay dormant for up to seven years. It cannot be killed by any sterilization methods. Yet another meat eating health problem.

Sure there can be some obvious problems with a veg*n diet with some people who don't pay close enough attention, but there are way too many other factors involved with eating meat. The whole if everyone quit eating meat and the land argument. I somewhat agree it wouldn't necessarily be the best thing but if everyone cut back somewhat and the meat market wasn't as big we could feed a lot more people. The biggest thing is grain. Close to 75% of the WORLD's grain is used for livestock. If I remember correctly from the book I mentioned earlier the US actually has to import grain now to meet our need because so much of it is being used to raise livestock. So if we could downsize the meat market to make more grain available we could feed alot more people, and it doesn't rot that fast.

Grazing land to farming land not good for the environment. Gimme a break. Do you realize how bad the animal waste coming from these factory farms is for the environment. And farming all that would do is create more oxygen which the levels of have been depleting anyways. All you have to do mainly is rotate your crops so you don't rape the lands of the same minerals. And as for actually grazin territory there is also an argument that states that the animals hooves aerate the ground. Wrong. They compact it with their hooves which actually make it harder to absorb water causing it to flood easier. I could probably go on and on, but if you want to know more just read that book.

"Food Revolution" by John Robbins

 

Something I forgot to add. Yes there are veggie that contain Sat. Fats but there is not any veggies anywhere that contain any cholesterol. So w/o meat you not only cut out all cholesterol but you do cut out alot of sat. fats. And people worried about carbs. The carbs in veggies and fruits and such are called complex carbohydrates which are used much more efficiently than just straight carbs in candy and such.

 

Please remember though that others, for instance lacto-vegitarians also thinkabout what they are eating.
The fact that something like a b 12 supplement would be needed could lead to the conclusion that this is an artificial diet which can only be sustained by artificial means.

 

yes, i certainly did not mean only vegans think about what they're eating. i apologize for my poor word choice.

psst... vitamin D comes from THE SUN. as for iron, i can only speak from personal experience, but when i get my iron tested to donate blood, it's often higher than that of my omni friend. so it's not impossible.

 

WVhipster, I'll check that book out sometime, but I disagree with you in a couple places.

You at least agree that vegetarinas need to be careful with their diet, but I dont just eat meat, my calcium intake is fine, and I exercise every day, my bones are probably dense enough. All that exercise means I personally need a large amount of protein. Your also a man, and you have a much lower chance of getting anemia, than a woman

Is this Dr. Ornish a vegetarian himself? He could be very selective with the data... Dr. Schultz published a study in 1994 comparing a meat heavy diet to a fruit heavy diet, and found that the meat heavy diet reduced the occuance of breast cancer by 30%. This may have been because a conjugated linoleic acid (CLA), a fatty acid known to be a powerful anti-cancer agent, is found only in the fat of ruminant animals

I dont agree with the antibiotic injections of meat, however, those tests were in controlled labratory experiments, and although its a concern, this can also larglely be blamed on the over prescription of antibiotics by doctors.

Mad Cow??!! are you serious?! you can't actually call that a health concern , and your going to have top prove that number to me. So far about 20 people have been linked to the human varient of mad cow, jacobs disease. 20 in say, 6 billion... the odds of contracting it are about one in 300,000,000. Theres been no proven link in beef eaters contracting this disease, we dont really no whats caused it, its an anomile. I'll take my chances.

We wouldn't be able to feed the world if everyone became a vegetarian, in fact it have little effect to curve starvation. For agriculture you must use land suitable for farming (obviously) and like I said, two thirds of the dry land is unsuitable for farming, it could be desert, mountainous, or covered by marshes. most of that land thats unsuitable for agriculture can be used to graise animals.

The problem with malnutrition isn't really a lack of food, its lack of resources, including money. Food costs money, it costs money to grow, to clean, and to ship. The big hunger problem isn't in the US, its in Africa and Asia, and even if we were able to convert all our grazing land to farming land, we'd just be stuck with too many veggies. You'd be naive to think we could feed the world like that.

The cost of shipping that much food to Asia and Africa would be tremendous, and distributing it would be even more implausible. Fresh produce rots rather quickly, and the enviormental problems of shipping that much food would be noticable. Shipping Produce just isn't viable, although shipping seeds is. We're already giving tons of seeds to poor nations to help them, but their problems mostly stem from the lack of technology to farm that very effeciently.

Even if we could ship all that produce, the price would be so outrageous, it would be much much more expensive then they could but foods themselfs. We would have to artificially lower the prices substancially, another huge cost burden, but this would also take away the sale from another destitute country seeling off its surplus.

Like I said, I'm not trying to disuade you, I just get tired of hearing that my diets ruining the planet all the time. Take it easy.

 

i got told i would DIE if i went vegan...... funny cause i am now a vegan been one for a few years now and i my IRON is PERFECT,...without supplements, smack in the middle range.

 

Mmmm,Sounds like monoculture to me.Potatoes require deep rich soil,on open flat ground-certainly something not found everywhere.Also potatoes require are heavy feeders that means much fertilizer is required.I grow potatoes in my back yard together with green beans.It is called companion planting.

Anyway, why begrudge cows any existance at all?They are one of the most useful animals that we have.Remember controversial post in the old hip forums for a National Cattle Day? We need animals.They enrich our lives.What is wrong with good old fashioned mixed farming?

 

WVhipster,it is good you are doing reading from books, but let me give you a tip, research from a number of different scources.

 

Ask not what animals can do for you.....
Hey, what better way to thank cattle and honor the ways animals enrich our lives by not putting a bolt pistol to their brains?

 

We humans are also mortal.Some of us die a slow horrible death.Voluntary euthenasia is highly illegal.In other words ,society does to humans what we would never do to animals.

 

That doesn't excuse the practices of the meat industry. Imagine if it were flipped: some animals die horrible deaths, so that makes it ok to kill people for very frivolous reasons. You can campaign for voluntary euthanasia for the terminally ill, and more power to you. But one wrong society imposes upon innocent victims (suffering humans) does not legitamize another wrong (mass slaughter of animals).

 

four years ago i was diagnosed with GERD. in my case it was nearly crippling. vegetarian was my something i came to after about a two year struggle for health. without meat in my diet i am no longer dependent on antiacids and i have no need for dangerous perscriptions and medication to habndle the disease. in so many ways am i healthier and i am not the only one.

before you start attacking vegetarian as a healthier lifestyle maybe you should open your eyes and mind beyond the brainwashing that the meat industry helps maintain thorugh socialization and fear (for health and "normalcy".)

 

I couldn't imagine a competent doctor telling a person they would die if they didn't eat meat.

Both these examples are anecdotal, the very thing science has proven you can't relly on.

Don't get so defensive, nobody was attacking anything, we were just debating the health impacts of a vegetarian diet, and I was pointing out that vegetarinas and vegans need to eat particularly carefully to get all essential nutrients.

Your just falling for the lies of the tofu lobby... see how easy that is?

Eat what you want, I dont really care, I was just discussing potential negative health concequences of a vegan diet, and pointing out the propaganda used to further some abstract goal. I live a very active life, and need lots of protein, and I'm very healthy, I exercise at least two hours daily, and I haven't even had a cold in 3 years or so, don't believe everything about nutrition from people who are trying to change your diet.

Take care.