Swiftboat veterans for truth

You're terribly confused.

The reason they are pursuing it is because of the advatages.

 

I brought it up to demonstrate that Kerry is no less slimy that Bush. Note that I have not tried to insist that Bush is above reproach, in constrast to many delusional Kerry supporters.

Why are so few private companies willing to invest their own capital?

 

They are investing. If some aren't, it might be because they are afraid of the stink that certain idealogical and religious groups will raise to try to smear the reputation of the company.

Some things are just facts. There are advantages to embryonic stem cell research. Kerry has war experience and Bush doesn't. They remain facts no matter how much a group tries to deceive people about it.

 

I'm with Rat on this one, as I've posted in the past and laughed when this first came out. I still do not understand why this is such a big deal to people. What if we had two candidates who didn't go to any wars, then what? This is not an issue. I don't see why no one gets that. Vietnam is over. We are in a real war right this very minute (or an occupation rather) that I deem and I'm sure our soldiers over there dying deem much more important than what happened 30 years ago. What I am voting for is not who went to Vietnam, I'm voting for who can represent what direction I want this country to go in the future. I am more concerned with what each candidate is planning to do about education, healthcare, other social services, taxes and the economy and last but certainly not least foreign policy.

Next they will come out with some shit how Kerry used to play with Barbie dolls or something when he was 5. None of this BS is relevant. I understand how it can show a persons character, but I already know the character of politicians, they are all liars. And last time I checked there isn't a person on the face of this earth who hasn't lied about something. This is all just to divert everyone's attention away from what really matters.

 

Actually that doesn’t prove anything.

 

You want to talk about the lack of differences between Bush and Kerry, look to the corporate agenda that drives both parties. However, in comparing the character of the two men, you are merely regurgitating spin yourself (and quite well exposed spin and lies in fact) that kerry calls for killing human life (unless of course you are willing to admit that you take a fundamentalist view that a few cells constitute a "human life").

Even the cloning of a few embryos for scientific purposes does not equate to the quite loaded terminology of human life you seem to be suggesting. They are merely cells in a petrie dish.

It surprises me little to read the crocodile moans of the writers you have cited, for they have themselves shown their support for an administration and its policies which have quite substantial body counts (of viable living human beings) and despite all the revealed lies and the quagmire these policies have led to, these neo-con mouthpieces continue to advocate for the continuance of such policies in the ad infinitum posture of militancy of the WoT (a fraud for endless MIC profit if ever there was one).

You say their political leanings have no bearing on their entirely opinion laden articles indicating that you cannot tell the difference between a focus on the merits of the research itself and a diatribe intended to cast aspersions on Kerry in order to gain mileage for the GOP.

Talk about the overarching status quo that stands above both candidates, fine. But when you compare the men, you have got alot of mythmaking to do to compare a known fraud to one against whom there has yet only proved to be documented vindication. Obviously you didnt bother reading the pdf naval records provided in my earlier citation. They show without doubt that your SBVT are utter frauds and entirely tied to Karl Rove and his smear politics.

An earlier poster had it correct. What is said about Bush has the full vindication of repeatedly revealed lies and self serving intent, what has been MADE (by the Bush campaign and its desperate need to paint Bush as a qualified CiC) the focus of this campaign concerning Kerry, IS smear and lies.

 

Lick,

I don't know how a developing human embryo could somehow not be a human life, but I'm not trying to debate this point. I'm simply noting that Kerry and other advocates of federal embryonic stem cell research funding have clouded the issue in several ways:

1) They surreptitiosly promote the cloning of human embryos as expendable object of scientific research. Rather than explicitly stating this aim, they cloak it in arcane euphemisms.

2) They consistently fail to distinguish between embryonic and other forms of stem cell research.

3) They hype the potential of embryonic stem cell research, without even mentioning the actual gains that have been realized through non-embryonic stem cell research.

 

If Kerry's military past is not an issue in the campaign, then neither is Skull and Bones. I've never heard anything much about Skull and Bones, people just say "skull and Bones", well what about it? Yeah, the candidates can't disclose anything about it, so I guess you guys are safe in just mentioning it and thinking you're on to something....

You folks who are voting for a 3rd party candidate must not have jobs yet huh? You must have the luxury of not worrying about the economy. Either that or you are among the elite rich that Bush panders to. Must be nice, I'm putting myself through college and I'd like a job when I get out.

 

No shit you've never heard of skull & bones...Alot of shit is hidden from us.Google it...

 

The presidency is perhaps the worlds largest auction. That is sad. What else is sad is the people who live in this country who sit back and watch TV and don't fight for what they truly believe in. We can all have better lives and more freedoms if we fight for it. If you think voting for one of these two candidates into office is going to help, you are wrong. There is only a few who see what is really going on in our country in relation to corporations/governments. We the people are the ones who are suppose to run this country, not the rich guys at the top.

 

greenthumb, this just goes to show that you still have a lot of growing up to do, by assuming such nonsense. I'm 24 years old, I doubt much older than you, and even I know why people vote 3rd party. Maybe you just do not want to admit that there is something wrong with our current political system and that it could quite possibly be corrupt. I don't really like what corporately owned universities usually have to say about politics, but perhaps you might look into taking a poli sci class so you can get a better grasp on what is going on in this world instead of relying on your closed minded tunnel vision. It isn't all honky dorey like you think it is. There is some real shit going down and you obviously have no desire to figure it out for yourself, you expect, like all of the other spoiled brat Americans, to be spoonfed your news and completely agree with what you are told without question. That my friend is quite sad. Unfortunately, you were never taught to explore the world around you and draw your own conclusions. You want to know about skull n bones, look it up. Don't dismiss it simply because you haven't heard it widespread on the news. They aren't going to report that shit. Just because you haven't heard something doesn't mean that it isn't true... I take it you haven't taken philosophy yet either?

And since you brought it up, I do plan to vote third party, and I will continue to do so until the day I die, if in fact the other two parties do not change or offer me what I want in a candidate. I wanted to vote for Kucinich, but the democrats had a very different agenda, apparently he was a little too progressive for them and the plan they already have layed out for this country. But since this campaign doesn't offer anyone in the two major players that I'm interested in I will have to vote with my heart. And quite frankly it isn't any of your damn business. We all get a vote here(well unless you are black and live in Florida).

Regarding having a job though, as a matter of fact I do have a job. See I'm not a spoiled brat I moved out of my house when I was 17 graduated high school early, got a full time job, went to college and I'm still in school. I work full time go to school 2 evenings per week and work a part time job on the days that I can. Most of the people I know work full time and go to school full time. I am not weathy by any means. I am not certain how you put yourself through school and you don't know where you are going to find a job, you haven't got one already? How exactly do you pay your bills? And I don't know what makes you think voting for either Kerry or Bush is going to secure you a job. As a matter of fact I don't think we will have more jobs under either of them because their chief concern at this point seems to be who was better in combat 30 years ago. I haven't heard one of them specifically address the job market, creating new jobs, or making sure people are secure in the ones that they do hold. I want to hear a feasible plan, not ridiculous mudslinging.

There is nothing about Bush that I like, and very little about Kerry that I like. I'm not voting for someone who cannot represent me. Furthermore, if people keep voting for those of Kerry's ilk, this country will never change and grow. That is the problem, all of you people are scared to death. Scared that things might change and your status quo will be all fucked up. Things can't stay the same. You either roll with the punches or get knocked out and America is on its way to getting knocked out by our own greed and selfishness to want to rule the world. The center of the universe does not lie here in America, that is just what Americans like to think.

BTW, what makes you think that you are entitled to a specific job or any job when you get through college. I'm sure Walmart and McDonalds will be hiring? What are they not good enough for you? I don't recall anywhere where it states the government is in charge of finding you a job. It is your responsibility when you have the means to acquire an education, one on the collegiate level at that. So I suggest you start looking now and make the "right" contacts now, if you want to secure a job so bad. You can't wait until you are through with school and expect to have one handed to you, you have the resources that so many others don't even have, so stop bitching about it and be grateful.

 

Right. The obscenely wealthy Kerry, his Hollywood cronies, and the closed-door corporate orgy at the DNC all represent the common man!

 

First- when did you become a critic of someone being successful. That’s extremely hypocritical coming from a Republican. A candidate’s personal wealth is not an issue- that’s even true for Bush.

As far as the “closed-door corporate orgy”- I don’t know what you are talking about. The real closed-door corporate orgy was hosted by Dick Cheney when he had his famous meeting with corporate leaders to give away our national resources to a few corporate contributors.

What should matter is what the candidate will do for the people. So far Bush has favored a handful of billionaires over the masses.

-So far Bush has lied to the American people on several occasions.
-So far Bush has plummeted our nation into the largest debt in history.
-Bush lied 4 years ago when he said that he would protect the environment. This is another example where he doesn’t believe in science. He said that there wasn’t enough evidence to support global warming. 99% of the worlds scientists disagree with him.
-In the next presidential term the baby-boomers will start reaching retirement age. I don’t believe that Bush has a plan to save social security.
-Apparently he has no plan to save American jobs either.

Bush approved a record number of executions as governor of Texas yet he claims to be a Christian. Please send him the name of your therapists.

 

First of all, I'm not a diehard Republican. If a pro-life Democrat like Tony Hall would ever run for president, I'd enthusiastically support him. Unfortunately, the party would never nominate him unless he dropped his pro-life stance like Jesse Jackson, Al Gore, Dennis Kucinich, etc. have all done.

Second, my point is that Kerry is no less "elitist" than Bush, and his "regular guy" posturing is far more hypocritical:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/08/03/do0302.xml

Both parties' national conventions coincide with private fundraisers that are somehow conveniently exempt from campaign finance laws. The media tried to cover the Democrat's shindig in Boston, but they were barred from the event. The same will undoubtedly occur with the Republicans in New York.

I doubt that these numbered anywhere near the 4000 abortions per day that "Catholic" Kerry stridently supports.

 

they are both hypocrits and actually they are both really quite alike. You all are proving my point so well for me, I really don't have to stick around and add much, now do I...

 

So the fact that Bush approved a record number of executions is OK with you? Is it a question of morality or is it the numbers that mater. Millions will suffer because of the stem cell ban- is that moral?

Women will get abortions, both Dem’s and Rep’s, if it’s legal or not. What a free choice provides is the safety of a real doctor. No more back-alley abortions. I remember what it was like before Row-v-Wade.

I personally don’t believe that a soul is in the fetus in the early stages of pregnancy. But that’s just my opinion. I do respect that you have a different opinion.

So, if you’re not a Republican- why do you support the swift boat liars?

 

While I oppose capital punishment, it is not morally comparable to butchering innocent unborn babies.

You obviously haven't paid attention to a word I've said on this subject, so I won't bother refuting this baseless assertion.

This "back alley" mantra is completely unsubstantiated:

http://www.roevwade.org/myths2.html

Moreover, even if abortion should remain legal, it could still be minimized through a number of modest restrictions that pro-abortion zealots like Kerry have adamantly opposed.

Some people don't believe that anyone has a soul at all. Does that give them the right to kill? The existence of the soul is a religious tenet, but the humanity of the unborn is a matter of scientific fact.

I'm not sure whether I believe them, but I'm not prepared to dismiss their claims entirely as part of a "vast right-wing conspiracy." In any case, they certainly have the right to be heard.

 

luvdrum, I just saw your post with the cartoon about 4 pages ago. Almost peed myself!

 

Now you're assuming.

I get my news from NPR and independent sources on the internet. I don't watch TV, don't even have one. I don't like what's goes on either, but I don't want 4 more years of Bush either.

you don't know what I was taught. I do plenty of research, as much as I have time for.
You misunderstood, when I say I don't hear about skull and Bones I meant on here. You guys mention it, but provide no real info that confirms that it is so bad.

Well good for you.

Yeah and who is behind that, not the Democrats.

I worked full time all summer and now that school is in session I work part time and have a work study. I have a student loan and modest grant.

I believe the economy will improve under Kerry. He wants to raise the minimum wage among other things. He isn't going to give tax breaks to the rich.

What I'm scared of is 4 more years of Bush.

Did I say that I was entitled to a specific job? I don't support Walmart or McDonalds so obviously I wouldn't want to work there. Nor should any college grad. I know too many people who can't find a job or are working below their skill level. It's not just me I'm concerned about.
I love people and want to help them. I don't think handing people sludge from McDonalds is helping them. I think Walmart is an awful awful company.
You think people are too content with how things are, yet you think people should go to college and be content to work at Walmart? I think you are confused.

 

No I was not assuming, I was deducing, there is a difference. I read what you wrote and came to a conclusion based on what I have read. If there was something else that you wanted me to consider before I responded, then you should have posted it. I didn't say anything about any one particular group as you did by grouping everyone who votes for a 3rd party together.


I didn't say anything about tv. But I am glad that you get your news from independant media outlets, many people these days do not. You still sounded like you wanted people to just tell you what is going on though. I don't need to be told the sky is blue, I can walk outside and see for myself that the sky is blue. That is why I don't always believe what the media says because they will tell you the sky is green all day long, while you know it is blue, and some people will inevitably believe them, because "well they said so on the news".

I don't want 4 more years of Bush just as much as anyone else, but if Kerry wants my vote, he has to convince me that he deserves it with much more than "I'm not Bush". I can't believe that is his slogan. At least I'm not Bush. And he knows Americans are so desparate to get rid of Bush that they really do believe that anyone but Bush mentality. Are you telling me you will lower your standards for a president simply to get rid of Bush? I am not willing to do that.

Good for me to vote third party, and good for you to vote whichever way you wish. Its a damn good thing we are voting. You jumped on me and others for wanting to vote 3rd party and suggested that we love Bush so much that is why we do it. I was just simply explaining to you that is not why I want to vote 3rd party.

If you found a job this summer, and you do student work, why would you question whether or not you could find a job after you graduate? There are jobs out there. Especially if you have a degree. It isn't the same as it was 10 years ago, because quite frankly degrees don't mean as much as they used to because many people are getting them these days. (I've written an entire paper on this if you want to know more). I just don't understand why you think that you will not have a job when you are through school. I have a full time job and I still haven't received my degree yet. It pays the bills. You might not start out at the top when you come out of school but there will be work for you. I suppose having no tv you have never seen that commercial I think it is for UPS or something I'm not sure where the office assistant is explaining to the new guy how to send a package or something, and he looks at her and says: "I have an MBA" (as if he felt like he shouldn't have to do this kind of work), and she says, "oh well in that case, let me show you more slowly" or something like that (I'm sure I screwed it all up, but I got my point accross I do believe). You sound like my little sister. She thinks she is going to graduate in Spring and just find a job with a top accounting firm making $75k a year and move to Philly. I keep trying to tell her it doesn't work that way. She didn't even look for an internship in her field because she didn't want to do anything too hard this past summer. From your post you kind of sounded like you had the same mentality. As if you expect to have companies fighting over you. It isn't like that anymore. Regardless of who is president, companies are not going to be fighting over you because there will be 10,000 other candidates just like you who are more than willing to start at the bottom and jump through hoops. They know how the game is played. I'm not saying the game is right or I like it, I just know how it is. I've been working below my skill and pay level since I went into the workforce at 17. It sucks ass big time! Why do you think I am able to sit here all day and argue with people? I'm not challenged in the least bit at my job, and I don't get paid shit. But I have to work. I have to pay rent and bills and I'm saving to buy a house. I need to have health insurance and dental and I like knowing I have a 401K. This isn't my dream job, nor did I ever imagine in a million years I'd be working as a retail buyer, I'm going to school to be a personal trainer and nurtritionist for crying outloud. I'm a natural hippy type and I'm buying stupid shampoo and make up to sell to 13 year old girls at an inflated price so they can dress up and look like hookers in middle school, all so some fat ass man can buy his 15th car or his 4th beach house. It sucks, but this is how it works. That is why I do not want to vote for the corporately owned Kerry. He would do the same things this company does.

He isn't going to give tax breaks to the rich, but he will raise taxes will he not? I mean he wants to send more troops to Iraq, where are they going to come from and who is going to pay for it? Do you honestly think that Kerry isn't going to give the rich tax breaks? Perhaps that is what he says, but he is rich, his wife and family are rich and all of his friends are rich. You said he wants to raise min. wage, but it doesn't really matter what he wants if it can't happen. What exactly is his plan on healthcare? I don't want someone to just come out and say this is what I want to happen. You can wish in one hand and shit in the other... I want him to prove to me how he can make these things happen if he is elected. With numbers and show me specifically where he is going to get the resources to accomplish what he claims he can accomplish.

I know what Kerry says he stands for, but this is an election. Don't you think just for one minute that he is telling you what you want to hear. I mean none of us know him. None of us have been to his house and seen how he treats his family, hired help, etc. Everyone thinks they know him and what he will do when he is president, but we don't know what anyone will do. I don't even know what Nader will do. I do know he isn't making ridiculous promises that don't make sense. Depending upon which crowd he is in front of Kerry says and does something completely different. He can't even make up his mind if he likes war or not. It isn't a trick question. Quite simply he changes his mind or his stance on things too much for me. I don't know what to believe. I think he is wishy washy and I would describe him and conniving and a chameleon and I don't trust him.

Vote for whomever you like, I'm just saying my heart isn't behind Kerry, whether I want Bush out or not. The surface changes everyone is expecting Kerry to make, aren't real changes it is like putting a bandaid on an amputated limb.