One of the many problems with heaven and hell...

Prayer is 50/50 and chance. How often do the results of someones prayers come true? I think it is chance, that SOME of the time the results of someones prayers become apparent. They praise it as an act of god, but the more often instances when prayers are not answered there is no mention of it. Another thing that boggled my mind is when people pray to god after a time when there is a natural disaster. Isn't a natural disaster an act of god or the wrath of god? Why would a loving god inflict on his people a disaster the likes of Katrina? And why would the victims pray to whom or what they believed was the cause of the tragedy?

As for the idea of hell, there is no physical proof of the afterlife just the believers faith that it exists and that whatever they believe is correct. I believe the idea of hell is more of a control factor, but then again thats how I see religion entirely, a whole shitload of guidlines and controlled living. There are too many versions of religion and god in existance for any one alone to have credibility, so I believe none of it. Not all of them together can be correct, so the most logical way to look at it is they are all wrong.

 

It was Jesus who said the rain falls on the just and unjust alike. When you hear the voice of God and He tells you something, and then it happens, your nolonger thinking 50/50. And in 1968 I got caught on a 7,400 vole eletrical line and I can tell you, I could see things with my physical eyes, and I could see things with my spirtual eyes. There is a life after death because I was at deaths door.
And if you are looking for credibility, consider the prophecies of the Bible. Only the Bible speaks about the future with 100% accuracy.
The Bible tells us just before Christ returns the Jews will return to Israel, it tells us they will retake Jerusalem, it tells us at the same time Jerusalems East Gate will be sealed until God returns and opens it. It tells us Israel at this time will be surrounded by enemies. And it tells us that at this time man will have the ability to destroy Himself. And Christ tells us that if it were not for His second coming, man would destroy Himself. The Bible is telling you the truth, is anyone listening?

 

The living souls are in Hell because they hate God, they have chossen to live their life for the Devil. Hell is the choice they have made. And if they could trade places with you, they would freely pull you into the flames and toss away the key, laughing as they left you behind. If these same were in heaven, they would find a way to rebel against God there. God is looking for people who will freely love Him, and that's the kind of people you will find in heaven.

 

this is the most stupid thread ever... really. Believers and non believers (of any belief) have adjusted their way of thinking to their own personal perception of reality.

so it is kinda like trying to have DEEP conversation with one man who only speaks french and a woman who only speaks some africa clicking language

 

off topic but any way... This is what gets me about christian bashing or jew bashing or buddhist bashing... KNOWING... KNOWING, that things like this exist in the real world and then belittling someone for identifying a piece of what is counter the suffering of others and then being millitant about it is sad.

Thank you talitha

 

God doesn't hear selfish, unfaithful, ect prayers you say, but does he answer every prayer meant well and being done for good? Every prayer to cure a sick child, or a sick family member? Alot of people pray my friend, and alot of people pray with the right intentions but how often is it these prayers are answered?

 

Yes, as it’s been noticed above, it’s a total misunderstanding. I am already tired, Campbell, of your contradictions and evasions, and especially of your firm confidence in the existence of people who are unable to repent, which is, in my opinion, against human nature. As if you have a kind of unstoppable mechanical device in your head that has sworn to brainwash everybody. Anyway, I must quit. 74 hundred voles are eagerly waiting for a dinner. They say the truth sometimes, are you listening?

 

so what your telling me is your saviours love is conditional....if its conditional campbell it is not pure. if he comes to judge me i will look him in the eyes and tell him the same. my search is for purity....not conditional love, and really, that is why i can not follow your god.

 

Please state my contradictions, and my evasions for the record.

It's human nature that has brought them to Hell, and another name for human nature is sin. Your truth is of this world, it is the same truth that was spoken to Eve in the garden. And those in Hell had a time to repent, yet they choose to pratice evil. It is the same evil that tells people that hell does not exist, or Hell is just a temporary place. It is an evil that tells us that the Bible is a lie. Are you listening.

 

Well you will be like so many here with your twisted logic, you will talk your way into Hell. We are living in a lost world, and God sent His Son here to save the world from sin. Yet the Bible tells us that the world will rebel against this truth. You will not follow my God because you are part of the rebellion that was started long ago. You want to dictate to God how it's going to be. God's love is extended to all people, and He gives it freely. God's gift to the world was Christ death on the cross. Yet you would throw that gift back in God's face and then tell God His Sacrifice was not pure. Jesus gave His life for you, and that's not good enought for you. Is it any wonder that Jesus tells us, "how will they neglect so great a salvation?"

 

You’re incredible, Campbell. I think even Trotsky, maybe even Goebbels would envy your tireless tongue! Maybe some of us have twisted logic, but you seem to have no logic at all!! I wonder if human nature has entirely abandoned you

 

eightysixed, it's not my tireless tongue that troubles you. My logic is a belief that the Bible is true. I know who Jesus Christ is. I can tell you that He is alive, and the day is coming when you will have to stand before Him. Now He will either be your Saviour, or He will be your Judge. It is that choice that truly bothers you. I would expect humans to abandone me, yet I know God never will.
For Christ is a friend who sticks closer to me, than a brother.

 

To quote Mr. Carlin who says it pretty well.

"In the Bullshit Department, a businessman can't hold a candle to a clergyman. 'Cause I gotta tell you the truth, folks. When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims: religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told.
Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
But He loves you.
He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!"

 

Well I find that non Christians often have their own B.S. department. They put down the Christian's and their faith, yet when you tell them of fulfilled Bible prophecies, they just keep walking pretending you didn't say anything. The fact is they do not want to know anything, especially if it proves the Bible. Many of these people so love their sinful lives, that the idea of trading any of that for a God would be considered insane. And often the money Christians ask for, is used to help some person who's life has been messed up because of a sinful life. Christians spend a lot of time trying to help people who hate Christians. And Christians often go to other countries which put their own lives in danger just to aid the down and out. And Christians have done this for many years, and long before aid came from anyone else.

 

Pretty much ALL of the bible is UNproven, find me historical documentation BESIDES the bible that proves the fictional stories and prophecies true!

 

What would you accept as proof? Any sort of historical documentation?

 

At least something more than the bible. A religous book written by the followers of jesus accepted as fact, sorry don't buy it. I see the bible as more of a book with fictional tales that teach morals or lessons, nothing more.

 

Well, I am not a premillenlialist (that's the technical term for Campbell's position, I believe). I am a preterist.

What I would point to is that in at least two gospels, Christ claims that the temple is going to be torn down and that there are those he is speaking with that will see it. In 70 A.D. the Roman army razed the temple to the ground. (On a related side note, IMHO, most of the book of Revelation is a figurative depiction of the events leading up to and culminating with the destruction of the temple.)

Now, we have a conundrum. If the gospels were written before 70 AD, then they are completely and accurately predictive of one of the most amazing military accomplishments of the ancient world. However, it might have been written afterward. So, let's say that it was. What are we left with?
1) A propaganda piece trying to convince people that Jesus was the Messaiah.
2) This propaganda piece *completely* fails to record the fulfillment one of the most amazing "prophecies" of Christ.

We have to be able to account for why the prophecy was included and then not shown to have been fulfilled... especially if it is propaganda. To rectify it, you have to resort to theories that become completely inconsistent with thought patterns, literary styles and cultural understandings of the time. What makes the most sense is that the books were written prior to 70 AD... which leaves us with a prophecy whose fulfillment is recorded completely externally to scripture.

Is that satisfactory? I am sure that you will have questions/comments.

 

So then you believe all of the prophecies relating to the end of days had already happened in 70 a.d. with the Romans destroying the temple? The problem is though, we don't know if that WAS accurately predicted or simply recorded. It will remain a mystery.
The question to me is does the bible ever state there WILL be a second coming of christ? or is what the bible predicted or recorded to happen in 70 ad the culmination of the prophecy.

When I was talking of the bible as fiction, I merely speaking of the story of creation, more or less. The more fabled tales of Noah's Arc, Adam and Eve, ect. I don't see the book of Genesis to have much credibility at all or even the stories of Moses and the ten commandments.

 

Thanks for the latest of your posts, nothing’s already bothering me, Campbell; on the contrary, I am rapturous and delighted as if I have just come down from the 29th heaven full of bliss