Islam and world peace

I've actually decided that in future, I will not be posting either here or in the christianity forum.

All I will say to wrap this up, is that IMO it is inevitable that people who cling to negative and outmoded belief systems will be offended. Half the attraction of such systems to those not born into them and brainwashed from birth is that it makes peope feel morally superior to 'un-believers' or 'kaffar' as islamics call those they don't like. Moral self righteousness.

Having just yesterday sat through a tv documentary where an undercover reporter has filmed in british mosques which are purortedly maimstream, and uncovered a great deal of radical 'hate' preaching, I'm afraid I see only conflict coming in the future here in the uk betewwen islam and the liberal/secular society.
It seems that factions of wahibi islam are taking people, giving them scholarships to saudi universities, and sending them out to spread the message of hate.
Some of the 'teachings' of islamic preachers in london and birmingham mosques:

'A girl must wear the hijab when she is 10 years old - if she refuses, we hit her.
'Take that homosexual man and throw him off a mountain'
'We do not need to discuss with jews and christians about the filth they believe'
'The pinacle of islam is jihad'.

That is a pretty representative sample.
Where will it lead? Certainly not to an integrated multi-cultural society.
My worry is that in all likelyhood, esp if more bombs go off in london, that it will eventually provoke a reaction in terms of a swing to the right in british politics. Already the BNP, the british national party who are basically facists are becoming more popular. If they ever get power, we could see mass deportations, the banning of islam (and perhaps other religions too) and quite possibly some very nasty stuff indeed.
Whilst I dislike islam, I don't hate any person because of their beliefs - I don't want to see an 'ethnic clensing' scenario acted out in this country. On the other hand, nor do I want to see the spread of islam over here, and make no mistake, there are factions backed by saudi money who would seek to establish eventually an islamic state over here. Even now, they are attempting to get the govt to allow them to set up islamic courts here, so muslims can be tried by them. In my view this is completely unacceptable, and although I think it's extremely unlikely that the govt will comply, it is yet another factor which illustrates the unwillingness of some to accept the culture and values of the land they've chosen to come and live in.

Either way, I have to say that given the choice, I'd rather live under hitler's nazis than in an islamic state.

Islam is not about liberation, but slavery and blind belief in what I reagard as the most primitive and savage of the world's scriptures. The societies it leads to, such as saudi with it's religious police, are extremely unpleasant - human rights abuses are rgarded as the norm - punishment by mutilation etc etc. And for women it's just control and repression. Iran too - anywhere in fact, where islam either has political power, or is used by repressive rulers to keep their own people down and themselves in the money - as in saudi. We in the west who continue to cash in on saudi wealth by selling them arms, are insane. What if the saud's fall and an islamic govt takes over?

I don't regard muhamad as a spiritual man, but a vicious warlord, and possibly a psycopath.
Many muslims today are filled with hate - hate of the west, hate of women, hate of jews, christians, hindus and pagans. Even the idea of muslim unity is a joke, as shown clearly by events in iraq where muslim is currently torturing and killing muslim. Like the other western religions, islam had it's day in the middle ages, and offers nothing in the modern world but conflict. For the individual muslim it means a life where free thinking and expression are effectively banned, mainly because these folks are filled with fear engendered by their erroneous and dumbed down philosophy drawn from the koran.

 

Many people misunderstand Islam and focus on the violence without looking at the context of that time. For forty years our Prophet lived as a merchant, living in peace with everyone. When the injustices reached unbearable levels and when he was inspired by God to do something about it, he began to speak in favor of the weak and the oppressed. It got him a lot of anger from the establishment of his time. They put an embargo on him and his family for thirty months. (Embargos is an old tactic of fighting). His wife of twenty five years and his uncle who provided him protection both died because of malnutrition and starvation. How many of you know this? How many of you know that slaves who converted to Islam used to be roasted alive for entertainment? (It was slaves who converted, as Islam said there is no difference between the slave and his owner in Allah's sight, which is the case and which was truly apealing to the slaves). Then the whole Muslim community was forced to abandon their businesses, homes and city of Mecca and immigrate to another city that was willing to give them refuge. In Arabia if a lot of people came into your city, it could mean the death of everyone.. as the water and food resources were fairly meager. THEN and ONLY THEN the first battle took place against the Meccans who had created these conditions for the Prophet's working to resolve the condition of the slaves and women. Women were like chattel. Men could buy or marry as many slave women as one wanted.

The prophet used all the tools available to fight this dark society that buried its daughters in the sand alive, and lashed its slaves to death or roasted them alive. YET, when the Prophet had power over his former enemies, he spared their lives. People who care for the truth, should rise above the propaganda and find out all the facts. FIND OUT WHY ISLAM APEALS TO SO MANY? Everyone is not evil. People are not evil by nature. In fact most people have an inbuilt system that sides with justice.

THAT is why Islam is spreading so fast, as knowledge and means of communications have increased and resources are available to propagate the truth of Islam to those who care.

The Prophet said "Do not kill in battle those who are running away or have lost their weapons or have been wounded. Every enemy killed will be replaced with two. Turn people with kindness, tolerance and humility. Every person thus turned is an "enemy" killed and a friend is born in that same body, whereas killing physically needs to be restricted strictly to self defence."

There is deep wisdom in the above statement. It was clearly practiced. That is why Abu Sufyaan the arch enemy of the Prophet lived to ripe old age and his son and grandsons became rulers of Muslims.

Those who are ignorant can turn only through knowledge.

 

I'm with Bill on this one. From what I have read of the Koran, Allah is nothing more than a distant figure, who commands fear from his followers and not love. If you believe this statement to be false, could you show me some text from the Koran that dispels this theory.

 

I only skimmed through your post but I can see that you could use a little more understanding. The wahibi are a very small fraction of Muslims, it's like the KKK branch of Christianity. It is most definately not a representative sample, again it's like using the KKK as representation for the entire Christian world. All of the things you quoted in apostrophes are non Islamic, you confuse culture with religion. I do agree with you on the political bit, I do not think any religion should be used as a form of government. When you say you would rather live under Hitler than an Islamic government, please recognize that the governments are usually run by the minority groups that are much more radical than Sunni Islam, but regardless, it is against Islam to try and convert others that are not willing and torture is no more common over there than it is here. The women are unfortunately repressed, but this is cultural, not religious. If you don't see Muhammad as anything but a psychopath, then you are either biased or very pestimistic, most likely both. How exactly do you know that many Muslims are full of hate? What evidence do you have to make such a stereotype? The media? How many Muslims do you even know? Have you ever been the victim of Islamic hate? Most Muslims are extremely peaceful and tolerant, MUCH more than the majority of Americans or Christians; your claim couldn't be farther from the truth. And the Islamic unity you speak of is equivalent to an idea of unity between Christians, Catholics, Jews, and Puritans. The Sunni and the Shi'a are completely different and unity between them is an unrealistic thought. Islam does not ban freedom or free thinking, it is a guideline to live your life by, it does not control it. And you call the Qur'an erroneous? Respective to comparitive religious texts, that better be sarcasm. Do you know how many times the Bible has been translated and modified?

 

How about you provide the evidence of your hypothesis?

 

2. Thalika alkitabu la rayba feehi hudan lilmuttaqeena

2. This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.


9. YukhadiAAoona Allaha waallatheena amanoo wama yakhdaAAoona illa anfusahum wama yashAAuroona
9. Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not!

10. Fee quloobihim maradun fazadahumu Allahu maradan walahum AAathabun aleemun bima kanoo yakthiboona

10. In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).


24. Fa-in lam tafAAaloo walan tafAAaloo faittaqoo alnnara allatee waqooduha alnnasu waalhijaratu oAAiddat lilkafireena
24. But if ye cannot--and of a surety ye cannot--then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,--which is prepared for those who reject Faith.


And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight against you and do not transgress bounds [in this fighting]. God does not love the transgressors. Kill them wherever you find them and drive them out [of the place] from which they drove you out and [remember] persecution is worse than carnage. But do not initiate war with them near the Holy Kabah unless they attack you there. But if they attack you, put them to the sword [without any hesitation]. Thus shall such disbelievers be rewarded. However, if they desist [from this disbelief], Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. Keep fighting against them, until persecution does not remain and [in the land of Arabia] Allah’s religions reigns supreme. But if they mend their ways, then [you should know that] an offensive is only allowed against the evil-doers. A sacred month for a sacred month; [similarly] other sacred things too are subject to retaliation. So if any one transgresses against you, you should also pay back in equal coins. Have fear of Allah and [keep in mind that] Allah is with those who remain within the bounds [stipulated by religion]. „
—Qur'an, 2:190-194


Prophet! Rouse the believers to wage war. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will subdue two hundred: if a hundred, they will subdue a thousand of the disbelievers: for these are a people without understanding. „
—Qur'an, 8:65


Muster against them all the men and cavalry at your disposal so that you can strike terror into the enemies of Allah and of the believers and others beside them who may be unknown to you, though Allah knows them. And remember whatever you spend for the cause of Allah shall be repaid to you. You shall not be wronged. „
—Qur'an, 8:60



Have fear of Allah and [keep in mind that] Allah is with those who remain within the bounds [stipulated by religion]. „

—Qur'an, 2:194


Indeed those who are opposing Allah and His Messenger are bound to be humiliated.
—Qur'an, 58:20


Fight those who believe not in Allah or the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission and are subdued. „
—Qur'an, 9:29


Then when the sacred months [after the Hajj] have passed, kill these Idolaters wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent and establish the prayer, and give Zakah, then leave them alone.
—Qur'an, 9:3-5


[193]...fight with them...[194]...whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you
[4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward. [4.75] ...fight in the way of Allah... [4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Satan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Satan

[4.89] ...take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back [to their homes], then seize them and kill them wherever you find them... [4.90] Allah has not given you a way against them [Allah supposedly does not allow Muslims to fight people friendly to Muslims]. [4.91]...seize them and kill them wherever you find them

[4.94]...when you go to war in Allah's way... [4.95] ...those who strive hard [Jihad] in Allah's way with their property and their persons are not equal...Allah shall grant to the strivers [i.e., Jihadist] above the holders back a mighty reward.

you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews [compare with "whenever Jews kindle fire for war, Allah [Muslims] puts it out" (K 005:064)] and those who are polytheists [while they are converted to Islam on pain of death. make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them K 8:012 slay the idolaters wherever you find them...take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush K 9:005 [9.12] ...fight the leaders of unbelief...[9.13] What! will you not fight a people...[9.14] Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people. Fight those who do not believe in Allah...nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book (The Bible), until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. K 9:029 (Sorry for some of the disorganization)


9.38] ...Go forth in Allah's way [to Jihad]... [9.39] If you do not go forth [to go on Jihad], He will chastise you with a painful chastisement and bring in your place a people other than you [to go on Jihad]


Your turn.

 

Kaiser, I'd be interested to know where you got that and whose translation it is. I have almost never seen a scriptures original meaning survive translation, whether it be the upanishads ot the Buddha's sutras, or the Gospel.

As for evidence to the contrary, I suggest you read the works of Bawa Muhaiyyadeen, a wonderful Sri Lankan Sufi master. His book Islam and world peace is available online at bmf.org. It offers a beautiful explanation and interpretation of these verses, which when taken literally and out of context and from a translation, cannot be correctly understood. Even your very definition of the word jihad is incorrect, don't trust the media to be your guide in spirituality. I trust you will read and try to understand these things with an open mind, rather than go into it with preconcieved notions. Or perhaps you would rather bind your hatred to your bosom.

 

The decision of Bill and the likes to not post here is sad. Rather than make an effort to understand people, to forsake them is not the mark of spirituality.
Even if Islam were filled with hate it is our responsibility to try and find out why it is so, what caused such hatred, for it is not natural in people. Whatever is good and bad in the world, we all share a part in it, the praise and the blame. And to say these people are bad, those people are psychopaths, but my people are wonderful, so I will stick to them, is to abandon a large portion of the world to the wolves.


To love those who love us is no big deal. That is not even real love, that is simply bartering of affections, it is little other than glorified prostitution. To love all, in spite of everything, to love those who hate us most, and to try to heal their hateful agonies, that is true love, that is what Christ taught, that is what the Buddha taught, that is what Krishna taught and yes, it is what Mohommed taught as well.

 

The following were my 2 main sources. Most of the verses came form Sacred Text though. I enjoyed reading the Koran on Sacred texts, because it gave it in the origonal language, then english.
www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm
www.answering-islam.de/Main/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html

As for the literature, I will check it out; and rest assured, it will be read with an open mind.

 

I've just finished reading part 1 and 2. I'm glad he had it displayed on his site, so I didn't have to purchase the book (Not that it would've been a waste of money). It was a very refreshing read, and a beautiful interpretation of the Koran. I can accept his view a lot easier than the interpretations of Islamic fundamentalists.

The only thing that would have convinced me, is if he hadn't had been so broad, and generalized the Jihadist texts. I wish he would have picked out main Jihad verses, and explained them in detail. Most of the verses that I have shown you seem too literal and straight forward to be generalized like that.

Some of the text that he did provide, I had never seen before, or heard of. I am not in any way doubting the text he provided(He is by far a much more reliable source than I), I just need to look into it further. I wish he had given the reference numbers so I could look up his provided text in the Koran easier.

"Hostility cannot be overcome by hostility; to overcome it, you must first rid yourself of your own hostility and then have inner patience. Vengeance cannot be defeated by vengeance; if you want to defeat it, you must first overcome your own vengeance and then practice love and compassion."
-Bawa Muhaiyaddeen
This was my favorite quote of his. It is what every faith must teach to its followers.
God bless.

 

sacred texts is a good site with a positive intent, and I do use it often in research for my book and essays, but even there I find that the translations lose a great deal of the original meaning. This is nobody's fault - translation by nature does not allow for a total transmission of ideas, because all languages are not pliable to the same degree and direction.

The list on the second site is compiled by a Jew. The two religions being at war, I would hardly trust one to give a fair and balanced view of the other.

As for the book: Bawa is not alive any more, he passed away in the early 90s (i think). His book was written in the eighties, when there wasn't as much a media firestorm over these things. And anyway, based on Bawa's explanation of Jihad, you can go back to those verses and see them in a whole new light.

 

"Love your enemies. Nothing annoys them more"- Mark Twain

 

Though it is not a translation of the Quran, Huston Smith's The World's Religions gives a fair and pretty unbiased overview of Islam (as well as most of the world's major religions)...

 

Absolutely. I adore HUstom Smith. In the 5 DVD interview with Bill Moyers, he spends a whole disc on islam and addressing the jihad issue.

 

the true sacrifice must be without hurting any innocent person ..if they wanted 2 protect them selves they have 2 do it in the right way without making a huge unsoled problems in the world ... i think there's is many missunderstanding 4 the jihad thing ... it must be 4 protecting the islam ..but that doesn't mean that we have the right 2 step on the other religions ..they have the right 2 choose their religions wihtout any pressure ..& the islam tought us 2 respect others ...but 2day's sick minds :\