Republican, Democrat, liberal, ...

Here are a few musings on the thread so far

It seems to me to have highlighted one of the problems with US politics today, the seeming inability of Americans to enter into or even to understand what debate is.

In the run up to the Iraq war there were many people who came here to get at those arguing against the war,

They told us that we asked too many questions that we were nit pickers and were being divisive, they said we just didn’t get it, and if you didn’t get it then you were a just plain wrong. They said we should be just supporting the President without question, we should support the troops, support the war on terror, America was under attack and so it wasn’t the time to question.

I think that if more people had actually been asking questions rather than just accepting things, then the Iraqi invasion and occupation may never have happened.

But as this thread shows that inability to understand why asking questions and taking part in open and honest debate is important doesn’t seem to have made an impression on many people.

Some people still seem to think that asking questions, seeking clarity and wanting explanation is in some way wrong, it is nit picking it is being combative and argumentative. We should just follow without question without any explanation of what we are following. Because you either get it or you don’t and if you don’t you must be wrong, so to ask questions must be wrong.

This to me is dangerous because if it becomes the accepted norm it basically means the end of political discourse and we leave behind the open society and enter a world of ridged political dogma which cannot be questioned.

**

But is this an inability to debate or unwillingness to debate?

Well for some it is an inability they just don’t know how to debate, to many Americans ‘debate’ is listening to two (or more) pre-prepared speeches and deciding on which one they like best. Questions, or clarifications don’t come into it, so when some come here to this forum, they think they can just do the same, state what they think, and stand back and see who likes it and who doesn’t.

They seem to get confused when asked questions or if asked to clarify or explain a point or idea, and just seem unable to cope when actually being asked to defend what they’ve said. Some just leave, others see this as wrong and bitch about the questioner, accusing them of bias, personal malice or hidden agenda. Some see questions are a personal attack on their ideas that they have to win at all costs and don’t seem to mind lying and deceit in trying to gain that end, taking little or notice of what is actually said during the discourse.

What they don’t seem to understand is that debate very important because it is about the testing of ideas.

It shouldn’t be shied away from but embraced as an opportunity to see if something they believe in is strong enough to stand up to the scrutiny of there peers. In that way discoveries are made and ideas develop.

And if an idea doesn’t seem that strong that not a moment of despair but of insight.

There are however those that seem to know that there ideas are not that strong but because they have already become a dogma to them they are unwilling to allow them to be debated openly or honestly some even revel in deceit, to me such people are as sad as they are dangerous.

**

 

I never said anything you are responding to I was just clarifing what that other guy was telliung you

 

Gardener
Is there any point trying to debate with you here when many of the same issues raised here have already been raised in the ‘Taking Sides’ thread where you seem to be refusing to respond?
**
"Us" means everyone.

Does that everyone include the ones you have called evil and bad? – “There are some good folks in the mix, but they are not enough to counteract the bad”

The thing is you have opinions, political viewpoints, on what should and shouldn’t be, but what about those having differing views to your own? Do you give up the things you agree with to support things you don’t just because they are part of what you see as ‘us’? What is your goal what kind of world do you want, do you care what it would be like?

You seem to imply that asking questions is nit picking but at the same time you say that we should ask more questions and demand answers, one moment you say that we should take off the blindfold the next that we should accept things blindly.

You don’t seem to know your own mind or what you want to say so how am I to understand what you want to say when it seems so unclear to you.

 

Brainstew

Are you actually willing to discuss the issues raised by your post?


Dud

So man is the deafening roar of silence your reply to my points?

 

Are you really certain they are the enemy? I have many friends that are very conservative Baptists. I wouldn't want to view them as the enemy. We may disagree on some issues, but they would lend me a hand and are my neighbors.

A person can encompass many viewpoints throughout their lives. To try and label individuals is pointless. They may be conservative on one issue and liberal on another. If you try and view the world as black and white, you miss out on all the other shades and colors.

 

Us means everyone. Simple enough to understand. Everyone means everyone. Some folks get it some don't.
I live my life by trying to be clear as possible, always, and finding the truth underneath all the BS... I don't have alot of patience for those who try to muddy the waters by picking apart that which is ultimately clear....
I know my mind VERY WELL.
We SHOULD be asking questions, but not dickerng over details between ourselves, especially when people are being quite clear in their statements. This gets to be very much like trying to travel down a road and getting stuck in the mud...

Try going back and reading the whole thread. You may find that everyone has actually been cristal clear in their statements.

Fuck mud.

 

I suppose it depends on what kind of political policies people want to bring in.

There were many people in 1930’s Germany that got along with their fellow citizens, be they Christian, nationalist, communist or Jew, oh they might disagree with each other on some issues but they would lend each other a hand and were their neighbours. So why did things change?

Well as Gardener says viewpoints change, he seems to think that it doesn’t really matter what they change into, my own viewpoint is different.

**

He says people “may be conservative on one issue and liberal on another” but that is why it is so important to ask questions and debate about what kind of policies they do support.

Many Germans supported the National Socialists but many of them didn’t actually understand what was being suggested because they didn’t ask. In fact the Nazis talked a lot about making Germany great again and bringing prosperity but debate on their polliicies wasn’t encouraged people that asked critical questions at their meeting were met not with answers but with fists.

**

I’m here just trying to get answers about what kind of political things they people want and why. The problem is that some people here talk about being a bit of this and a bit of that but when you ask to explain they seem reluctant and I wonder why.

 

I am sorry that you are frustrated that some of us refuse to be pigeonholed in to categories and labels Balbus.

To bring up the Nazi argument seems to prove how desperate you are in your campaign to categorize.

I continue to ask questions of any position before I choose to support it. Labeling people isn't going to force them to ask those questions. In a sense once taking up sides they may feel more complacent about accepting anything proposed by their purported "side". Empty promises of security and prosperity don't wash with me.

 

‘Fuck mud’ ohhh what a colourful turn of phrase you have over where you are, like being verbally hit in the face you could say?

So you want to ask questions just not some questions so who decides what questions are allowed to be asked and which ones cannot?

Well in this instance you seem to be deciding what should be asked and what shouldn’t?

So earthmother how do you decide and why do you believe you should decide?

 

yes, I am 1000% sure that those who follow Bush and co. are the enemy.

 

The majority of democrats in congress voted to permit the Iraqi war, where do they fall in your scheme of enemies?

 

gardener

“I continue to ask questions of any position before I choose to support it”

So you must then be able then to explain the positions you have chosen then? Why do you seem so reluctant to do so?

 

“To bring up the Nazi argument seems to prove how desperate you are in your campaign to categorize”

But I’m sure I’m not the only one that has noticed that this statement only sidesteps the issues it doesn’t address them.

 

More mud.

Nobody decides.

The thing you don't seem to get is that everyone on earth is in the SAME BOAT. We all live here, we all have to figure out how to get along. If we don't, we have wars. We fight, rather than debate. We determine to pick apart details which we don't agree with or pretend not to understand rather than try to work together to make things better. Getting so caught up in the details is where the saying "can't see the forest for the trees" came from.

Everyone on earth is a victim of those who don't have the ability to see the forest. And even the worst of the leaders and the worst of the blinded, they are the biggest victims of all, bcause they have chosen to follow the narrow path of fear and control. They are handicapped actually, and have no business being leaders at all...

Do you know what causes anger? Fear. Do you know what causes fear? Worrying about your self, what you have, what you want... What if everybody struggled out from under being afraid? That is where truth lives.

Fear causes people to do many stupid things.

You are SO "passionate" about finding fault with other peoples opinions, without actually giving your opinion. Your fear is showing brightly.

Why not join the human race and try to discover what is really going on in the world rather than endlessly "debating" each opinion as if you did not understand anything anyone was saying? Actually, it is rude to enter a thread and attack peoples ideas simply under the guise of "I don't understand". What is not to understand?

The human race is a beaten down, manipulated, and controlled lot. We are not given any credit for being able to think or take responsibility for ourselves. It is not allowed. Many of our so called leaders are less intelligent than we are and have "social issues" that we don't. Many of us resent being manipulated in this way. If we had leaders who actually put our best interests first instead of their own, we would not feel so put upon.

Yes, that's fear too. This whole planet runs on it.

Well, I'm certain that I can't be any clearer than that. So if you simply continue to question every detail of what has been said and put words in peoples mouths in order to stir up controversy, then you are ripping off those of us who actually WANT to discuss the real issues. And I don't have the time, as I actually have a super busy life, which includes a fair share of ACTIVISM. That's putting your actions where your mouth is....

 

I have stated my position on many issues on this board. I have no intention of providing you an outline or list, so that you can achieve your agenda.

 

What exactly is your issue Balbus? That I won't declare myself either liberal or conservative? Sorry not going to fallen into that trap.

 

I DONT SEE MUCH TO DISCUSS. I WASN'T ASKING A QUESTIONS, STATING SOMETHING I SAW IN THE NEWS OR ANYTHING. I was just saying that I think the reason behind all of the names like conservatice and liceral is to seperate us and the goverment is behind it., You were going into other areas, I don't even know what you are talking about. I didn't say they were all the same or all completely different. I didn't say anything about their tances or belifs I was solely trying to state my belif that the goverment is trying to seperate us by these names, just as they do with gender and race. If you were looking for a political debate them you best go somewhere else because that's not what my post was intended to be.

 

Don't worry about it, talking down a 14 year old makes Balbus feel self important. He gets put in his place quite often and you are an easy target for him, do yourself a favor, ignore him because he's going to keep trying to confuse you and like earthmother said so fantastically "muddying the waters" that's what he always does.

Earthmother i'm with you, FUCK MUD.

Balbus, I know your going to go into a long diatribe after this......your as predictable as a sunrise Love and light mate.

 

smartest thing ive heard all day!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Yeah Rob has it straight. Balbus may be a moderator but he does tend to go off on his little quests with a gusto.