One Major Difference Between Jesus and Religion

So, Stephen prayed to someone, not God, in heaven? Many Christians do that. And, many of the worship passages, you speak of, are translated differently, in different Bible versions. Some versions no longer say worship, they say kneel. And, the Bible contains many contradictions, so it doesn't prove anything anyway.

My intension wasn't to get into the Trinity debate. I've seen the Trinity "proofs", before. I assumed your view, that Jesus is God, for my questions. I want to understand why you think it was such a great sacrifice.

See. I accepted the premise that Jesus is God. However, God is an eternal being. His human life, as Jesus, wouldn't even be a pin prick, in the scope of infinite time. God is all mighty. If he really coveted his human shell, he could make a new one, whenever he wanted. If he didn't, then it was no great loss.

It's also just a human shell. He didn't really "die", right? He is still alive, and well, living in heaven.

Again, I accepted the premise that Jesus is God. Assuming he is, then it seems apparent, to me, that many of his statements and actions, including praying to himself, were just for show. Which would allow for the possibility that the crucifixion was just for show.

Again, I accepted the premise that Jesus is God. I'm wanting to know how it constitues such a great sacrifice and great suffering, assuming he is God.

I think it would be more of a sacrifice, for a real human, even a resurrected one (maybe Jesus was Adam), to give up his life, than for a God to give up a human shell.


Peace

 

Hey 3D Jay - I will stop with the 3D jokes now(but I still like things and people in 3D - they look much better to me).

Nowhere in the bible do believers ever pray to anyone other than to God. It doesn't matter what "christians" do. If they pray to anyone other than God(Jesus is divine also) then they are not practicing biblical prayer.

"Proskuneo" should be translated consistently - not worship in one place and kneel or bow down in another to suit one's beliefs as many translators have done(JW's New World Translation and The Diaglott etc.). If one translates it as "kneel" then one should consistently translate it as "kneel". It doesn't really matter how one translates it - as long as they do so consistently. Whatever word or words one chooses("worship", kneel", or "bow down") - the outcome remains the same - "thou shalt "PROSKUNEO" the Lord thy God..... and Him only shalt thy serve." People "PROSKUNEOD" Jesus. How could they do that and He allowed it if "thou shalt "PROSKUNEO" the Lord thy GOD and Him only shalt thy serve"? "PROSKUNEO" is meant for God only and Jesus is divine(at least according to the new testament).

Jesus suffered and died as a Man - in His human nature, in His humanity. I am grateful that He loved us so much to do so. Death could not hold Him captive and it shall not hold us captive because of what He did in His human nature for us. It's easy to understand. Just Thank Him. All the sin of the entire human race was taken upon Himself when He died - now that is the greatest suffering imaginable. If you don't believe the same way.... it's ok - it doesn't change that He loved you so much(and will always love you) that He suffered and died for your sins. The greatest action of love on this earth - to die for another.

3D Jay - You are welcome to PM me and share your views about who Jesus was, is, and if His death has anything to do with our redemption etc. Also, your view on the bible - what you believe or don't believe about it. I would love to hear where you are coming from. We can share views with each other and still respect one another. I am secure in my views but am open-minded enough to change them(I have many, many times) - I am always growing and I have much room for growth.... I hope that you may have benefited, even just a little bit, by anything that I have shared. Take what is good for you and leave the rest - that's what I do when others share their views with me and it works out really good, I must say. No one is asking you to become "churchy" - this is a hippie forum after all. "Churchianity" is not the way.

 

Well, Jesus is easy...and doesn't have to be God, to receive a prayer. He is, if I understand things correctly, alive and well in heaven, and is the mediator between God and men.

So, I wouldn't see what's wrong with praying to Jesus, even if he weren't God. He's also described as the "high priest" and head of the church. He is a self described interceder.

Quite right. Some Bibles tend to translate it, or the Hebrew equivelant, as "worship", only for God and Jesus, and "bow down", "kneel", or some such, for everyone else. I agree, that's the wrong way to go about translation.

Genesis 23:7 Then Abraham rose and bowed down before the people of the land, the Hittites.

Genesis 33:3 He himself went on ahead and bowed down to the ground seven times as he approached his brother.

Genesis 42:6 Now Joseph was the governor of the land, the one who sold grain to all its people. So when Joseph's brothers arrived, they bowed down to him with their faces to the ground.

Genesis 50:18 His brothers then came and threw themselves down before him. "We are your slaves," they said.

1 Kings 1:23 And they told the king, "Nathan the prophet is here." So he went before the king and bowed with his face to the ground.

1 Kings 1:53 Then King Solomon sent men, and they brought him down from the altar. And Adonijah came and bowed down to King Solomon, and Solomon said, "Go to your home."

2 Kings 4:37 She came in, fell at his feet and bowed to the ground. Then she took her son and went out.

1 Samuel 25:23-24 When Abigail saw David, she quickly got off her donkey and bowed down before David with her face to the ground. She fell at his feet and said: "My lord, let the blame be on me alone. Please let your servant speak to you; hear what your servant has to say.

2 Samuel 14:22 Joab fell with his face to the ground to pay him honor, and he blessed the king. Joab said, "Today your servant knows that he has found favor in your eyes, my lord the king, because the king has granted his servant's request."

2 Samuel 19:18 They crossed at the ford to take the king's household over and to do whatever he wished. When Shimei son of Gera crossed the Jordan, he fell prostrate before the king

Daniel 2:46 Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell prostrate before Daniel and paid him honor and ordered that an offering and incense be presented to him.

Thank him for sacrificing himself, to himself, and taking our sins upon himself, so he, himself, wouldn't punish us for those sins? The "greatest suffering imaginable"? I wouldn't call taking a finite number of sins, upon yourself, when you're an omnipotent omniscient eternal being, the "greatest suffering imaginable". Definitely not compared to infinite torture, if you don't do as your told. If he was just a human, maybe.

Here's the Biblical definition of Love...

Jesus may have been close to the Biblical definition of Love. But, the definition doesn't fit God. Meaning, if they exist, they can't be the same being.

I like hearing other views, as well. I'm still not sure I heard why anyone should believe he suffered instead of pretending to suffer, just as he pretended to pray to himself...assuming he was God. Or, heard why a physical body is such a great sacrifice, to a sinless eternal being. Or, heard how it even counts as a dying like a man, when you know exactly what's waiting for you, and dying equates to going home.

Thanks for the PM offer, but, as I stated, I wasn't even really looking to get into a Trinity discussion. My questions assumed he was God, for the answers.


Peace

 

In my opinion, if Jesus is not divine then He could not receive thousands of people's prayers all at the same time - even in heaven.

There are so many verses and passages that speak of the deity of Jesus. It is good though that you understand that He was human too. He is described as both Man and divine as the verses from Hebrews ch1. The "trinity" does not steal glory from the Father in my opinion. We could quote back and forth over and over again, if we wanted to but I think we just see things from different viewpoints - and that is ok.

The hebrew word/words behind "bow down", prostrate, fell etc. in these verses is not the same greek word "proskuneo". Completely different word/words in a completely different language - different usage also. "Proskuneo" does not mean the same thing as the word and words behind the old testament verses you have quoted, which are not even the same language as greek - even if many english translators translate them the same way at times. Most non-literal english translations are truly awful in their translation of words and not even close to consistent. We can go back and forth forever with english translations of bible passages. Usage always determines the true meaning of the hebrew, aramaic, and greek words in the time they were written.

Can't help you with the cross. I hold the same view as the new testament regarding the cross of Jesus being the power of God for salvation(1Corinthians CH1 etc., etc., etc.). There are many ways that people see it but If one doesn't see it as the power of salvation as 1Corinthians Ch.1 states etc. - then I can't help them. It is a beautiful thing if you see it in your spirit as I have been so blessed to see. I thank Jesus, pray to Jesus, and worship Jesus because of how I view his death for me - He is my saviour and is Divine in my view of Him. Before I came to understand, in the deepest part of my being, that Jesus loved me that much - I thought that God disliked me. Then I was set free due to hearing and trusting the gospel message of the cross and discovered that which I had experienced that wonderful day was spoken of in the scriptures clearly and without dispute - I then fell in deeper love with God.

None of us can explain everything in the scriptures - sometimes we have to focus on that which we personally benefit from and that which helps us to fall in deeper love with our creator, to worship Him, and to follow Him in love. It all comes down to knowing that God loves us/ falling in deeper love with Him/ and loving others. Love is the greatest of all as Paul speaks of - without it we are nothing - no matter how much we understand(or think we understand). I am far from perfect in my understanding of God and this life - but I have learned what is truly important(most of the time through my own stubborn mistakes).

I also did not want to get into a debate on the deity and humanity of Jesus - but I'm sure others are reading this so I have given some answers for them to hear my views in hope that just maybe someone will walk away with just a little bit of something of which I have shared that will be beneficial to them in their lives. I also do not think I have all the answers and that everything that I state is the truth - I am human and still searching and will always be searching for more.

I have decided I will not be answering any longer to anybody's posts on this thread because I feel we are just going around in circles.

Like I said, feel free to PM me and we can share views as we have been doing - but no longer on this thread because I feel it has reached to the point of not benefiting anybody. God Bless You 3D Jay - thanks for the conversation - even though we see things so differently - and that is OK..... We are both just human beings seeking more inner peace and truth - and we shall both find ....

 

"Proskuneo" and "shachah" are basically equivelant. The Greeks, themselves, translated "shachah" to "proskuneo".

Proskuneo http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4352

Shachah http://www.penei.org/words-shachah.shtml

III. Key Biblical Terms http://www.biblicaltraining.org/bible-gateway-online/bible-Worship-lay/bible-Preliminary-concerns.html

Does Jesus really suggest people take a lower seat, so they can be "worshipped"?

Luke 14:10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.

Or, is he suggesting something more like "honored"?

Luke 14:10 But when you are invited, take the lowest place, so that when your host comes, he will say to you, 'Friend, move up to a better place.' Then you will be honored in the presence of all your fellow guests.

I think we're only going in circles, due to veering into the land of the Trinity. Like I stated, I was willing to accept the proposition that Jesus is God, for the questions I asked.

I understand you believe it was a great sacrifice. What I don't understand is why you believe it was such a great sacrifice, for an omnipotent eternal unearthly being, that pretends. Your assersions of your beliefs, are very impressive. And, I'm glad, for you, that you've found what makes you happy.

I might do that. Basically.....I think pre-Roman dominated Christianity was closer to Arianism. It was more of a Judeo-Christian religion. There is no Judeo-Christian, anything, if Jesus is God.

Thanks, and...


Peace