Believers Vs. Atheists (my thoughts)

Well, I'm no expert, but here is my two cents on the subject:


All major religons (and most of the minors ones) have a central theme which is reflected by these writings:

Christianity: "All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to them; for this is the law and the prophets." - Matthew 7:1

Buddhism: "Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." - Udana-Varga 5,1

Hinduism: "This is the sum of duty; do naught onto others what you would not have them do unto you." - Mahabharata 5,1517

Islam: "No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself." - Sunnah

Judaism: "What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellowman. This is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary." - Talmud, Shabbat 3id

Native American Spirituality:

"Respect for all life is the foundation." - The Great Law of Peace.

"All things are our relatives; what we do to everything, we do to ourselves. All is really One." - Black Elk

"Do not wrong or hate your neighbor. For it is not he who you wrong, but yourself." - Pima proverb.

Wicca: "An it harm no one, do what thou wilt" - Wiccan Rede

Humanism:"...critical intelligence, infused by a sense of human caring, is the best method that humanity has for resolving problems. Reason should be balanced with compassion and empathy and the whole person fulfilled." - Humanist Manifesto II; Ethics section.

Scientology: "20: Try to treat others as you would want them to treat you." - This is one of the 21 moral precepts that form the moral code explained in L. Ron Hubbard's booklet "The Way to Happiness."


Of course, this is the "Golden Rule" or, in secular form, the "Ethic of Reciprocity".


If you DO NOT believe in God (or gods), how hard is it, really, to embrace this ideal? "I don't want anyone to steal from me, so I won't steal... I don't want to be killed, so I won't kill anyone... I want my beliefs to be treated with respect, so I will respect the beliefs of others..." And so on...


If you DO believe, then why can't you just accept that THIS is what God wants from you. He, apparently, went through the trouble of speaking this commandment through all faiths, so why not listen to Him (or Her)?


Here is what I think would eliminate the need for this debate:


Some Athiests need to acknowledge that: Just because God's existence cannot be proven empirically, does not mean that it is wrong to have spirituality in your life. By condemning and insulting those who have faith as ignorant, anti-science "luddites" (not that I have witnessed that in this forum), you come across as immature -regardless of your intellectual level- and you seem like you are "on the run from God" to the apologists. In other words, the more respect you have toward another person's God(s), the more likely it is that they will come to accept that you don't need (or want) "saving" or conversion. Many people of faith (especially Christians) struggle with how an Athiest could be a good person without guidance (or the threat of punishment)... Show them the positive side.


Some Believers need to accept that Athiests have a moral code just like everyone else. Brow-beating them, or holding eternal damnation (which they do not believe in, anyway) over their heads makes you look nutty (or at the least: "pushy"). You are using the fact that no one knows what happens after death to imply that you "might" be right about God, therefore unbelievers should fall in line "just in case"... How many times have I heard a Christian preacher say, "I came to Christ because I was afraid of Hell, I stay with Christ because now I love Him..."? Scaring folks with a boogeyman they don't believe in is just going to get you laughed at, and even calmly arguing Pascal's Wager makes you look desperate... Embrace the positive, no one like likes the fear tactics.


A few years ago, when I was younger, I had a profound spiritual experience which was not unlike an LSD trip that I had years later.


Now, a religious person would wonder how profound my spiritual experience actually could have been, if I wound up on drugs afterward.


An athiest would argue that because my spiritual experience triggered the same chemicals in my brain as LSD, then my "spirituality" is entirely chemical and God is all in my head. Right?


Do you see how you both live and wallow in doubt?


Do you see how hard a God, if one exists, would have to work to "prove" anything to anyone (especially if that God desired faith over false worship, as this God we always argue about seems to)?


When (and if) He spoke, He would almost have to have a simple message... Which He would then have to communicate through a lot of different channels to make sure everyone heard it... It would have to be something simple... Something that taps into the nature of Man's good side and be just selfish enough to appeal to Man's bad side...


See where I am going with this?



"Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 'Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?' Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." - Matthew 22



If you believe in God, then you have to accept the fact that He is capable of speaking to people's hearts individually. So, why would you dare try to speak for Him?


If you don't believe in God, and the only thing that might convince you of His existence is to hear it straight from Him... Why aren't you listening?



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"Better than a thousand hollow words is one word that brings peace." - Buddha (560-483 B.C.)

 

You did put it better than most individual religious leaders thought
thank you for the post and in time we will all get it

God bless

 

...brat,

Thank you for your kind words!

I love to talk about religion... I grew up Baptist until I met my wife, then I converted to Apostolic Pentecostalism. My mother (whom did not raise me, my grandmother did) is, and always was, a Jehovah's Witness. I have a very close family member who is a devout Buddhist teacher and several of our friends are Mormon.

Now, I am non-denominational, but with a few personal core beliefs that I see as my particular "spiritual path". I think everyone has a path, but I understand why some people refuse to believe that. I had several years in my life where I did not believe in God, either.

 

WOW! Soulfire, The thought about the common vein through many religions has occured to me before, but I never took the initiative to test the theory and compile such an amazing and telling list as you have. I knew that the gyst was similiar in a few religions because I have been exposed to them, but there are oh so many others and you proved your point wonderfully.

I was Wiccan and am Christian, but here is the odd part: Even though I am Christian, I still try to live my life according to the Wiccan Rede, ".And harm ye none, do as ye will..." I do this because it seems to me to be more encompassing than it's similiar Christian verse. What if a masochist treated others the way they wished to be treated?

The rest of your post also makes incredible sense. My closest friend is an atheist with a strict moral code which he does not break, ever.

I especially liked the last sentence.

Absolutely wonderful!

 

Well, I cannot take credit for the list. You can find similar lists all over the web. Thank you for your kind words, however...

 

Yes!!! The Golden Rule exists in some form in every one of the world's religious traditions.

It is a statement reminding one to be aware that all humanity, all life, all reality is interconnected and you, through your actions, establish the terms of your relationship with all that is. Your being, what you do, what you say, tells others the way to be, to do and to say to you.

Others are not necessarily at the same point in their journey from ignorance to enlightenment. So, it is possible that some will ignore your expression and treat you in a way (good, bad, indifferent, etc.) that you did not ask for. The real measure of spiritual development is how little influence you give to your expectations. The way you treat anyone should not be based on how you expect them to treat you.

Peace and Love

 

you forgot do what you will but harm none.
actualy though in most all of those religons you mentioned there are also passages that are in direct controdiction to those quotes

 

Hey steffan--didn't you organise a get-together in southern Oregon last summer?How did that go?

 

I dont know, I got called on a fire and stayed out pretty much all summer. there was a change of plans and I counted on someone to relay the message but apparently they didin't.

 

How lame. I'm afraid you have a few people quite angry with you.

 

I can't blame them either, murphys law was in full effect on that one. I realy didn't expect that I would HAVE to go on a fire or that shari would get that mad at me,(even though it realy had nothing to do with her) etc.. I wish there was someway I could make it up to you all, my humbelest apologises

 

If you can't comprehend being a good person without being threatened or rewarded, then you aren't a good person anyway.

 

my thought is that we neither know, nor ever can, either the limits of what is, nor what, if anything, cannot be.

but we're dam sure lying to ourselves when we pretend to be able to name or describe that which is greater then ourselves, whatever and however many, it or they, might happen to be.

=^^=
.../\...

even if, it, or they, or one of them, has, choosen from among us, every thousand years or so, to 'channel' to the rest of us, what it, or they, want us to believe and think we know.

what can also be observed is that it, or they, do not appear to be in the habbit, of taking a personal hand, in the collective everyday affairs of our planet and our species.

this then remaining in our own, and with no good reason not to stop creating the conditions by which collectively we cause our individual suffering.

whatever else may have been written, by or about, those who were choosen by it/them to do the 'channelling'.

=^^=
.../\...

 

I think one day Atheists and Theists will fill the internet with so much arguing, that it will finally implode under the weight of it all.

Which would probably please Eris.

 

eris is a bitch. but i'd give her a good roll in the hay if i ever caught up with her.

=^^=
.../\...

 

"Believers Vs. Atheists"

You do realize that atheists have there own belief?