Religion is supposed to be truth, right? Truth. You don't say "hmm, which one do I like best?" You don't say "Which one allows me and my friends to go to heaven the easiest?" What you are searching for is TRUTH. You will not find it by shopping for even the most believable religion, by studying and repeating dogma that you only know from others who have studied and repeated it, or even by hoping that that tingly feeling you get sometimes, your concience, or that voice you hear talking to you is god. That's not how truth works. You don't just pick it out of the air. There is ONE objective reality, common to all the universe, and you will not find it here, in the bible, at church/mosque/synagogue, or by hanging out with people who confirm your mystical beliefs. Please please please please please, think.
really, i think the main purpose of religion is to provide an explanation of things that seem chaotic to our puny (although remarkable) human brains. Religion is simply a social tool to aid people in their understandings of the strange and unexplained, it is also highly reflective of environment. Religion is also often used to control people. ex) "If you dont do what I say youll go to hell." I would seperate truth from religion... You don't use truth to control people, you dont use truth as a crutch to aid in your understanding of the world. BTW what is truth? sorry if this rant had nothing to do with yours...its just what popped into my head.
The only thing I disagree with you on, is the claim that there is "ONE objective reality". What if nothing in existence is entirely objective?
Then everything that we think we know is a lie. There is no science, there is no logic. There are no facts. Logic can be completely thrown out the window and *all* discussion of anything "true" or "factual" merely becomes an excercise in voicing our own opinions. All we would be able to discuss is our opinions (and never the actual subject matter). No, though Freakersoup and I disagree on several things (like the part where he said you can't find objective truth in the Bible ), in this case, the point of his post is dead on. There must be an objective reality or else all is chaos. Great post, Freaker!
A reality we kind of believe in or decide to call a reality, it's the same as religion I think everything is opinion and there are no facts, nothing can be proven, not really. peace
Granted, not everything can be proven. Some things (logic/math/physics problems) can. But just because you can't prove something doesn't mean it's not fact. That's like one little kid saying he kicked the ball over the house one time, and another saying "prove it." Assume for the sake of the example that he did. He will try to kick the ball over the house again, but that doesn't mean he did before, only that he can now. It's fact, but you can't prove it. Even without proof, we use evidence to know what we know about the world, the universe, and everything else. So, with that in mind, I'm gonna go ahead and change your statement to "I think beliefs are opinion." If we decided our reality, I don't think people would be stuck in this one. You can certainly decide how to view this reality, or what you "believe" this reality to be, but there is one reality. And the point I am making is that religion is supposed to be an explanation of reality, but if you look at religious beliefs objectively, from the view of an outsider, it is not plausible. If you compare yours with the ancient greeks, pagans, muslims, and whatever, I think you'll find more similarities than you'd care to. If you've really truly thought about your beliefs and think that they represent the true face of reality, then...I don't know, there's nothing I can do for you. But you shouldn't be shopping for religions or just going with what you know best, because that is not how to find truth. And nor should people be spreading their religions by telling people that heaven and hell exist, or Jesus is your savior or anything like that, because you don't know that. It's just dogma. If anything, constant skepticism of your beliefs and the things you're told is the surest way to find the truth, even if the man with the bible in his hand tells you it is dangerous. But that's only for you if you care about truth.
Reading the Bible without the guidance of the holy spirit is meaningless. You might say there is no such thing as the Holy Spirit? But how do you know? Can you objectivably test His presence? no... but that does not mean He is not there. Does truth only rely on what our five senses tell us?
Great example! Agree here too and again, an excellent point. If opinion shaped reality (and not the other way around) all the diseased and/or starving people in the world would only be in their predicament because they chose to be there... that's kind of counter-intuitive. Here I must respectfully disagree on two points. 1. I am not certain that religion is supposed to be an explanation of reality. To the best of my knowledge, most religions are centered on the metaphysical question of "why" reality exists and then move to a more pragmatic question "how should we live in this reality". As a full-blow "theory of everything", religion (like logic and science) simply cannot account for all aspects of reality simply due to the limitations of the scope of "religion" and the possibly unlimited scope of "reality". 2. Being an outsider doesn't make you objective by default, nor does being an insider prevent you from being objective. You have equivocated two concepts that I don't think can be equivocated. You have implied to a degree that since I am a Christian, I am incapable of being objective about my own religion. Your proof, I think, would be that if I were objective, I wouldn't be a Christian. I don't think that line of reasoning is logically sound. If scientists can be objective about their research when failure to produce results will stop their grant money and/or their paycheck, then why can't the Christian (or Muslim or Bhuddist, etc.) can be objective? Both are in the same boat. I worship the God of Truth. If all creation, even the whole of reality, reflects what is true, then why *wouldn't* there be similarities? The Bible says that God will repay us with what we have sown. Sounds a lot like karma, doesn't it? And I should expect things like that because people see and search for the truth. Leibnitz (sp?) and Newton both discovered calculus at the same time. They both had a different form of notation, but the concept was the same. Now, if God had come to Newton and said "Behold, I give you... CALCULUS," would that have made Lieb's "version" incorrect? Absolutely not. Christians do not have a monopoly on truth. It is out there and other people can stumble upon it. I think that Christianity is true, but that doesn't mean that other religions and belief structures cannot contain elements of truth. Give me an avenue to discuss what I believe with you so you can correct me if I am wrong and to better understand my position. After all, is it possible that the version of Christianity that you have been introduced to isn't all there is to Christianity. That there are those that believe for solid and rational reasons who have come to Christianity due to an objective look at the possibilities and decided that Christianity is the most probable. I agree with the first part about shopping for religions. I disagree with the second part. If an objective study has led you to the conclusion that Heaven and Hell exist or that Jesus really IS the savior, they would be morally obligated to tell others about it. I completely agree.
many of the truths we cling to, depend greatly on our own point of view. -Obi Wan Kenobi- (thats right...a stars wars quote... :spliff: ) theres no such thing as a true religion...we couldnt possibly know all there is about the whole of creation/god. our point of view is too limiting.
i trust my six sences...(the force being the sixth, lol, i jest in a serious nature)...and still i find the bible a hinderance in spiritual growth
FreakerSoup and Alsharad...good debate. The voice of sound reason is now audible on the Christianity forum.
Why though? Is it because you think the Bible is truly flawed. OR Is it that you do not enjoy the regulations God set forth?
But even so, most religions assert that there are things, real things, that cannot be seen, heard or experienced. To believe that there is a god, he is invisible, we are formed in his image, and that he affects our everyday life and inner being, is to say that these things are true. This is part of reality. In at the least vast majority of cases, this view of reality is based on how a person is raised, or who their friends were. It's no accident that few families attend different churches. This means that not only will people say that there is a god without any evidence for it, but they will also say that their version of god and his teachings are better than the others without any evidence. But it seems to me that these people are describing only what they really truly want to be reality, and ignoring or completely not thinking about that actually is reality. I'm not saying you can't be objective while Christian. Just not from the christian point of view. You can't objectively compare religions with the precondition that Jesus is the savior and your god is the true god. I suppose that is one way to look at it. But another point of view is that humans across the globe have certain thought processes and wants and needs to fulfill. So when "choosing" a belief system, people generally gravitate towards beliefs that fill this order. One of the most popular concepts is some sort of life after death or continuation in some form. Many people are not comfortable with this being the only life there is. It seems wrong. I think many people choose to believe in or keep beliefs in religion for this reason. It's not necessarily that they think that heaven is truly the actual version of reality. It's just comforting. It's something to hold onto when things are bad. I don't think Christianity is true, but I accept that some events did happen, and that the bible makes some good points about how to live. Especially the New Testament. I'd like to hear your thoughts. Possibly, but not just by saying people will go to hell. If you've objectively concluded that there is a heaven and hell, and Jesus is the son of god, the only way to spread it is to use that objectivity. Present the evidence. Because even if you get people to join your religion the other way, they did it only as sheep, afraid of pain.
I agree with everything you say man but I'm not of that type. To me it's just total unconditional love with no judgements or division for every living creature. It just set me on a course that while I don't abandon common sense or care for the uglies in the Bible or even the Bible at all.....but yea, just love. It's part of the reason I love you, everyone myself and while I don't need it per say to love humanity it just fits in well with me. peace dude, awesome post!
Yes, think. Think for instance that if the objective reality to which you refer is 'common to all the universe' then clearly it must be in the church, temple or mosque. Also it must be inherent even in ideas which are false. The objective truth can't be an idea or set of ideas - it can't be a rational/linguistic construct. It must be something deeper - something which remains unaffected despite what we tell ourselvers we 'believe'.
Yes, it is unaffected. And it is the same in temple, church, or mosque. Objective reality is described to the best of our knowledge by the various realms of science and observation. Objective truth is not a philosophy or a religion. It is merely the way things are, common to all people, whether they realize it or not. A blind person may not know exactly what you mean when you say your shirt is blue, but it is blue nonetheless. Objective reality is not about ideas. It's about facts. It guides everything in temples, churches, and mosques, but the descriptions there are not associated with reality except as a desirable reality. These things sound like they would be really nice if they were true, and I could do these things or live this way, and an eternity of happiness would be my reward. By the way, I have a very close friend who has always been christian, even fundamentalist for most of it. She has been recently going through a "crisis of faith," and when I asked her what that meant, she said that she didn't believe the OT, and therefore doubted Jesus's divinity, though she still liked his message. The only thing, she told me, that keeps her from not believing in god is that she wants to be able to look back from her cloud or whatever and see the effect of her living, and is really truly afraid of just ceasing to exist when you die. We had a good talk, and she said that while she understands that realistically and in all probability there is no afterlife, she would convince herself that there was and go on living in that manner, conniving her own brain whenever she doubted. I thought that was kinda sick. A willful turning from the probable truth to a happier thought.
I completely understand where you are coming from. It is a little silly. It is something that I fight against within every church I have attended (and even within my own family). I would agree that most people believe that there is a god because they were raised "that way." I fault the parents for failing to educate their children in the fundamentals of their faith. Still though, while that might account for a large portion of the faithful populace, you still must consider those that come to faith (and I am speaking generally, not just about Christians) by means other than familial indoctrination. Bringing it back to the main point: yes, there are assertions that some religions make that are not verifiable through scientific measurement. So I guess we are left with two very important questions: 1. How can we verify such an assertion? 2. What are our expectations for the evidence? Do we want "beyond all possible doubt," "beyond a reasonable doubt," or even "reasonable, but doubtful"? Agreed. That would be bad logic. So we have two plausible explanations. In reality, I think that it might be a little bit of both. I don't think that the issue of belief is so simple as being based on wishful thinking. There are deep rooted psychological drives buried in each of us that long for fulfillment. We long for truth and justice, even though we rarely wish to be subject to them. People do gravitate to those things that meet their needs. They also desire truth. In a Christian worldview, truth meets the emotional and psychological needs of the individual. So, it is only reasonable, that people would gravitate towards the truth (when properly explained/delivered). I don't think that we will be able to resolve this Chicken/Egg debate on this point, though. Well, we definitely have a good starting point. That there are some events that did happen. Further, you think that the moral compass points of the Bible (especially the New Testament) are at least somewhat pointed in the right direction. I am out of time to go into details, but I would like to continue this dialogue. I will post more when I get a chance. I completely agree. Fear is no way to win people. Christ talked about Hell a lot. He called it "the outer darkness" among other things. But not once do we ever see Christ present a "Turn or Burn" attitude toward a person.
Thank you It is hard to follow a path with such an ugly background and made up mainly of brainwashed masses that's quite frankly scary. It gets political, in others faces, calls everyone a sinner Live and Let live, Harm none to steal from other beliefs but this is where one should be at if they want to take up any religion of anykind It seems clear to me that by following Jesus isn't to walk around being a douch bag to everyone thinking you have some solid fact others don't this is more facism, closer to Hitler than Christ at times or to different degrees what's so confusing about the message of love and forgiveness I cannot understand all too often it's just degrees of GODHATESFAGS ECT to different degrees again and varieties honesty I have no problem with people who feel anger towards me for being Christian and Christianity in general beyond they should drop the issue for themselves and why trouble themselves with the hate mongers unless u can stop it Turn the other cheek get a little difficult at this point and while I'll do it myself if I see this behaviour around me directed at others I might just use a few quick hard snaps of the fist to the face b/c sometimes its all certain people can understand anyways, enough of the negative from me, thats not what I want but God bless you and peace dude Andrew
