The ONLY way for the universe to exist is..

....through the act of a force OUTSIDE of the universe.

The universe cannot be created or have always existed because both theories violate the laws physics. The ONLY way for the universe to exist is through the act of a force OUTSIDE of the universe.

Any force outside of the universe... is by definition ...god.

thoughts?

 

The poor old laws of physics!

lol

There is nothing outside the universe. Many humans feel uncomfortable about infinity. My advice is to get used to it

 

I believe the universe is all encompassing and infinate. You state that the premise of an infinate universe or was created violates the laws of physics. Well if the universe was created and this "god thing" created it, what created "god"? There are somethings that we do not understand as of yet. However, should we attribute what do not understand to the actions of an imaginary being?

 

I was going to ask the same thing.

 

sure there is; other universes. not that you can get there by heading for them, even if time and distance were no object. but that's entirely a seperate question.

but just what is and defines a universe, and one universe from another?

that would be the laws of physics and how they work in each of them.

the differences might be so subtle as to be all but unnoticable, or they could be quite dramatic.

one problem, when we get to talking about things on this scale, people tend to loose context as to the scale of one thing in relation to another.

universes, or at least this universe, contain galaxies (range of numbers of them unknown, but at least hundreds). galaxies contain solar systems (multiple BILLIONS of them). solar systems contain suns, generaly one each, although there are binaries and so on, along with their accompaning planets, moons, astroids and such other flotsum and jetsum as tends to accumulate in gravity wells. and of course a planet is a world which is a pretty darn big place all by itself to start with. also solar systems tend to be at minimum as far or furthur appart, as it takes a photon of light ten years to travel.

(this means of course that even galaxies are bigger places then most fanatics can even conceive of a universe as being. waaaaaaaaay bigger. mulitple times waaaay bigger. so big the light from one side of them takes longer to reach the other then for some odd reason they seem to think anything has existed at all)

so yes, there's really nothing fundimentaly wrong with the idea that something couldhave and wouldhave, had to stand outside of one universe to create one. and of course to be immune to entropy, to thus of neccessity, stand outside of time as well.

if something bigger then myself wants to call itself omnipotent i'm not going to argue with it. infallable is, however, a somewhat longer of a shot.

=^^=
.../\...

 

Themnax

The universe is everything. There are no multiples of everything. Everything is infinite. This is why we call it the universe and not the multiverse.

Nothing. This is my point. There is no 'other' to define it by. It defines itself infinitely.

 

REALITY HAS ALWAYS EXISTED.

THIS VIOLATES NO LAW.
THERE IS NO LAW THAT SAYS SOMETHING CANNOT ALWAYS HAVE EXSISTED

[there has been a thousand stupid little explanations to try to justify a reality
that was created... nearly all religious. They are STILL stupid and always will be]

THERE IS NO 'OUTSIDE REALITY'. REALITY IS EVERYTHING
THUS EVEN A 'GOD' IS 'WITHIN' REALITY.
AND CAN BE NOWHERE ELSE.

Occam

 

Gravity

Your sig is the face of the 'immortals'.
Slave warriors without free will

Is this what you are?

Occam

 

So,

If reality has always existed, then it must have existed before the Universe began with the big bang some 13 billion years ago (according to current scientific belief). It is logically necessary for an absolute reality to exist, beyond anything that one may understand the Universe to be.

The key to one's grasp of this ultimate reality is the question of what existed prior to the creation of the Universe, the big bang.

Atheism suggests that nothing existed nothing but time itself.

Of course, one could argue the question of whether time existed prior to the creation of the Universe, the big bang. One could also argue for or against the existence of time, but the question remains. If time itself "exists," then its very existence means there could not have been a time of absolute non-existence. If time does not exist, then there was simply no time of absolute non-existence.

It is logically impossible for there to be a time of absolute non-existence.

The next fearlessly logical question would have to be: Where does all of this time come from? Is there an absolute reality that transcends the existence or non-existence of time? Is there an absolute reality that transcends existence and non-existence?

The nature of this absolute reality would be a mystery that both includes and transcends all one may know about the universe.

There should be a name for this absolute reality . . .

Peace and Love

 

A person that says that even though they themselves have experienced that very thing. What for you existed prior to your birth and coming of age enough to have memory...absolute non-existance. The relative truth is THAT FOR EACH OF US nothing existed prior to our birth and nothing will exist after we die. It matters little if the universe was before "I" or that it will continue after "I". In all practicality it starts and ends with "I". There is no existance before "I" and none after because that is the limit of personal perception.

 

Varuna

No it doesn't!

There is. Infinity.

 

bamboo

Your concluding sentence is a non-sequitur, not to mention an untruth.

 

if god dosnt require a beginning, why should reality?

what created the god outside of our univurse, and for that matter....what created the god outside of that god and the space he must occupy....and what created him.....
ect...ect....

 

You know . . . you're right. This idea seemed a little off and I meant to look at it again for more clarity before I posted. All apologies.

Ah yes, Ein Sof, as they say in Hebrew. Brahman, Dharmakaya, the Tao, etc.

Peace and Love

 

heeh2

Please state your evidence regarding
'god dosnt require a beginning'

SO you, a tiny spec of protoplasm on an outer spiral stellar body.
On the edge of a galaxy, one of 400 billion.
Knows the nature of the god you and your religion created to fill in the gaps of your ignorance. Those gaps are vaster than your mind.
And occams.

But occam does not try to seal the grand canyon with carpenters putty.
He admits that we cannot know everything. ANd works from there.
This is our strength. Not to claim knowledge we dont have , but to use what we do to elevate our species.
And the knowledge we do have, is not in 'the book'
The book has much wisdom.

But it does not tell us how to get H and O from the moon.
Or how to get N from the solar system.
WE, have to do that.

Occam

 

Heehs point is valid, why should reality have to have begun just because it begins for us?

 

that was NOT my point.....

why:.....reality did not exist FOR ME, untill i observed its existance, but that isnt logic, its ignorance.......as the earth was not round untill an idiotic genius told the religious world, whos "god" had made the earth flat, that the earth was in fact, a sphere....

the original poster seems to know their is a god outside of our univurse that somehow "became", without creation.....

is it too much to ask the same for reality?......

in fact....isnt it an even better idea to propose reality (through the eyes of every observer in our univurse) has always been....and would continue without observation.....and through the ignorance of religious teachings or an underdeveloped species.....continue to "be"

as reality, an extremely probable product, is a MUCH more logical test subject than any theory written in ANY of the thousands of bibles that are no more than books, as far as im concearned

occam.....i strongly beleive you misinterprited the meaning of my post....

as your razor shaped my observation

and as for my god.........

my religion has no god.......

as i have no religion........

but i guess you could call that agnostic

 

Not exactly no, I see you're trying to drag 'god' along with it like every agnostic

 

thats what this hole thread is about............

"god must exist outside of the univurse" or w/e the original poster said

 

Yes

That is the whole point of the thread.
If 'god' cannot be 'outside reailty'
It could not have made reality.

As EVERYTHING is within reality...
Then god could not have made it.

You see the point?

Occam suggests 'god' is a product of reality
NOT omnipotent.
But THE major player in our observed universe.
[Universe being a minor part of reality]

This FITS.

Occam