stupid question

'Does God exist?' is kinda like a stupid question as I see it. It all depends on what you think God IS. For someone to say God either does, or doesn't exist, then they must have some idea of what God actually IS, right? If you think God is an old man with a white beard sitting in the clouds up in the sky controlling everything, then, you're probably not gonna see any evidence of that, so you're gonna say God doesn't exist, - fair enough.

What I'm saying is, if you don't know what God is, then you can't say that he/it doesn't exist. If you knew what the concept, which has come to be known as God really was, then you would freely accept that God does exist because it's existence would be self-evident. I guess it's a matter of perception and all the metaphors that have been applied to the perception of the idea of God throughout history are easily misundertood and taken literally by those who don't see the true meaning.

I'm not a Jew, or a Christian, but one of the most meaningful insights I know of is from the book of Genesis, when Moses 'sees' the burning bush and 'hears' the voice of God. Moses says, 'tell me your name, so I know that you are really God'. What God 'says' is simply, 'I am that I am'. What this means, is that Moses realised that God was not a person, or a thing that could be given a name, ie. something that was distinct from any other thing, but actually, that God was everything that is, ie. the entirety of creation, the whole infinite and eternal universe. 'I am that I am' just means, 'I am that I exist', or 'I am that which exists',- period. Giving God a name or any characteristics, other than simply existing would be to diminish God.

Ok, so, now that you know that God is just that which IS, you can't really deny that what IS, exists. It's that simple.

God isn't this, or that. God just is (by definition). Anything else is doubtful.

 

And yet you've done just that by saying that god is the universe, ie. 'everything'

Gods existence aside, do you believe in 'god'?

 

What? How can saying God is 'everything' be diminishing God? Surely, there can be nothing greater than 'universe', because it literally means the totality of existence, ie. the ultimate nature of reality.

Do I believe in God? I dunno, because everyone has a different idea of what 'God' is. I don't have to 'believe' in anything I don't know to be true. It's not a matter of having evidence, it's just a matter of the perception of nature and our place in it.

We are intimately connected with all other life, matter and energy in the universe. nothing exists in isolation from everything else. We are nothing less that one unified infinite and eternal living entity. This is the ultimate reality that I believe in. I think that some people have sensed this connection and tried to explain it in terms of 'God'. What do you believe?

 

Sorry, I should have been more specific. True you didn't diminish 'god' but you've given god a name and characteristic. The universe is the universe. To call it something that has other meaning takes from its meaning, not inherently, but to the extent that you make its meaning known to others.

Sure, and this total or ultimate nature is infinite.

This is why I don't believe in god.

I believe the universe is infinite, like you do.

 

cool. well, I'm glad we got that sorted out. You're very evasive on this God issue though. I mean, just completely denying the validity of it. I dig what you say about God being humanity's big mistake and all. I would guess that you accept that God is a metaphor for what you see as the ultimate reality, but you feel that taking this metaphor literally, ie. not understanding it to be a metaphor, has disastrous consequences. What's the solution? Is there one?

 

Does God truly exist?

simple answer: no

 

If you know that god doesn't exist, you must know what god is. so, what is god Darkgamer?

 

god doesn't exist and therefore is nothing

 

snakeeyes:

As I see reality as infinite, I do not call it 'ultimate' since we cannot even say that reality is ultimate in its infinity, only infinite. In this I recant my acknowledging 'absolute' or 'ultimate' reality. I don't accept god as a metaphor for reality in any sense, and I can see no sound reason for doing so.

 

A friend of mine thinks God told Moses, 'I am Ea.', which is very similar to I am what I am. I don't know much about Ea, sorry. As for God, I read that Buddha answered a student who asked him to tell them about God, that God is beyond knowing, so don't spend time on it. It is indescribable, and beyond our limited minds to define the nature of, so don't bother trying to. Instead, he is said to have advised focusing on helping each other.
That is good enough for me. Even were God real, why would it matter whether one believed so? On this thread, some wrote, God does not exist. That is just an opinion, since they cannot know for sure. If God were real and wanted to remain hidden in order to not interfere with what we chose to believe, and we wanted to find God, that is a game of hide and seek we would obviously lose.
It doesn't matter - bottom line.

 

this is interesting.

snakeeyes, very interesting perception, you cant deny something you dont know what it is, you can say you dont believe in it tho. But as Dejavu stated you are contradicting yourself, you are giving God a name and characteristics (the name you have choose to give its God). everything is everything and the universe is the universe, why would be call the universe, God?
We know that the universe is everything (even when we dont know what everything is), so we do not know what God is, or we are not aware of the totatily of "God"...
and a question leads to another and another and what do we end up with? I think God is the name people give to things they dont know and dont understand, does that mean it exists, only in their minds.

 

Let me put it a different way. When we ask ourselves 'Does God exist?' we have a preconceived idea of what 'God' is. If you see no evidence of your conception of God then you conclude that God does not exist. If you see evidence of your conception of God then you conclude that God does exuist. It depends what you think God is.

Preconceptions and misunderstandings are the only reason why people don't see God. Going back to the 'revelation' of Moses, God 'said' 'I am THAT I am', not, as Blackguard said, 'I am WHAT I am'. The meaning is different and this is crucial to the understanding. All it means is that God is 'that which is'. Would anyone argue with me if I just said 'I believe in that which is'? Surely most people would agree that they believe in that too.

The reason for the preconception that God is anything other than that which is self-evident is the misunderstanding of metaphors intended to explain truths about reality. I accept that most religious people who profess to believe in God don't have the same understanding as I do, but that's why most religious people are sick and twisted fuck-ups (sorry if anyone disagrees).

No, I'm not sorry, because those people give God a bad name and reinforce the preconceptions which make everybody think God is something that it isn't.

 

why are we calling that which is God?
I have no preconception of God.
I say what is just is, you say what is, is God...

and let's explore more into this concept.. God is what is, so it exists... and?

 

Snakeyes:

If god depends on what we think it is, then it depends on who we are as thinkers, for god, if it is to exist, must depend on itself as much as anything else. lol

As Autentique says, she has no preconception of what god is, and neither do I.When people don't see 'god' it is because they have no preconceptions and misunderstandings about it.

It doesn't mean that at all. That which is, is that which is. You still haven't given your reason for calling it god.

How is god in any way self-evident as a metaphor for the universe?

I disagree, being a deeply irreligious person, most religious people seem to me to be self-deceiving, self-effacing, self-denying, but still worthy of love.

Everybody?! The conceit of the religious is unfathomable!

 

I don't believe there is a higher power. I think this is all that is.

Peace and love

 

Hi All, I'm not gonna argue the finer points anymore Dejavu. Of course you're right with your dialectic reasoning process, but it is the preserve of your ego to find fault and dismiss what challenges your beliefs. That's not what I started with this thread for. If anyone is interested in my view and wants to explore what it means for us in a wider context I am happy.

Autentique,

if God is all that is, then that means that we are God and we are one. If we truly believe that we are one, there follows an end to ego, selfishness, evil, death, suffering and the realisation of universal love and eternal paradise. Is that good enough for ya?

I think that is easier for people to understand than all the mythological BS we get from religions, which is not really understood by people who claim to follow them and just manipulate teachings to suit their own purposes.

 

If the idea sounds familiar does that make it less valid? I thought it would make it more credible? I'm not claiming to say anything new. I believe that all of the established religions share insights of the same basic truth, so I agree with you in believing that there is a link.

 

I'm wondering anybody's take on this when i ask ' how can something so complex like the human body and the circulatory and reproductive systems be coincidental? The earth caring for itself and providing life for thousands of years and all the other planets and galaxies? Languages and races?'

 

Well it isn't coincidental, but how could life not be accidental at least in part?
Life loves mystery, loves paradox, loves itself!