yeah. he finally left HER. years and years of hearing my dad call my 98 lb moter fat, ugly and stupid. years of watching her struggle to feed her family because he was not helping. seeing my mother learn to hate herself and feel helpless, it doesn't do much for helping her think she can still feed her kids without him. i'll tell ya what, though. i learned. i watched, i studied, i avoided that shit like the plague. at least my mother has that.
Don't you even DARE, Maggie Sugar, pretend that i said ANYTHING about "Men are always the victims." If anything, it is YOU who sits here and complains how it is always women who are victims. Just because i proved you wrong on the murder statistics does not mean i'm saying men are always victim. The fact of the matter is, i think 17 years for murder(what men get) is FAR TOO SHORT. I am sick and tired of you reading a post how you want to and not actually reading what i said. Show me where i said men are always the victim. Please, show me. I said People have the right to a fair trial in this country. That is the very basis of a free country. I have asked how we get around the he said/she said problem. No one has answered. Why should we automatically accept what the accuser says over the accused? Now Answer this Maggie Sugar. If you go to the cops and said i raped you, do you think THAT ALONE is enough evidence to have me sent to jail for 20 years? I DO NOT. The accused have the rights too!
Our legal system is based on "innocent until proven guilty" When in doubt, it goes in favor of the accused. Remember, you have to be found guilty beyond a REASONABLE DOUBT. I've already said i dont think he said/she said based case are enough alone, you need some other evidence to tie the accuser to the crime. Now, you may think this unfairly gives the advantage to the accused. Well yep, thats what our legal system is all about. We arent guilty until proven innocent, we are innocent until proven guilty. If we accept the word of the accuser of the accused we have flip flopped our whole legal system around to guilty until proven innocent. That is VERY dangerous. Sending someone to jail is serious business. Now, you know nothing about my life. Do not make comments on what i do or do not know. Thank you.
I didn't give stats on murder,(cuz you don't want to read them anyway) on which my point was womyn get harsher sentences. No, Meg, you do always go to the "men are victims" route, whether it be rape "accusations" (what if the man is falsely accused?) or Domestic Abuse ect. I just don't think you understand the world a domestic abuse victim lives in. It isn't about just "leaving" for her (or in rare cases, him) it is about control, and manipulation on the abuser's side. Shit, I knew I should have kept out of this discussion. A fair trial, yes. How about FAIR treatment of Domestic Abuse survivors? Because I haven't seen this yet.
Good for you, KC. Your broke the cycle. This is hard to do. Blessings. Ya know, it's getting to the point where a womyn can't even discuss ANYTHING that has any amount of talk of a man who might have less than good motives here. Every time a womyn starts a discussion about her rights, someone jumps down her throat about how wrong she is, and how she doesn't deserve it, and how HARD it is for men (and, tell ya the truth, most men don't feel this way) THIS is the reason the Woman's Movement started. This shit was a Given, every day, and from the looks of things, we still have a LOT of work to do. Womyn don't have to search and look ect to find inequalities, they are there for all to see. This discussion reminds me of the days when you could not get a rape conviction unless there were "witnesses." And the days when there was no such thing as "marital rape" ect. Chick's ain't gonna quit fighting againt inequality. And inequality still exists. I can't beleive people are still arguing any different. Nuff said.
i think things have a tendency to swing in a pendulum of stances until you can finally reach the true center. i don't object to people stepping up and reminding women that men are people, too. eventually, perhaps when they feel offended enough, they'll understand what women really feel like. as is, i think it's a healthy state of affairs, ultimately.
I asked for statistics, someone else wanted to see them too. Do they not want to read them either? I gave you a study of the US justice department. If you have an updated study or from some official government agency, by all means. Show me them. The sentencing may well have changed in the past 16 years. I think people have the right to a fair trial. I can see where that may be construed as 'men are always victims.' God forbid i want the standards of our legal systme upheld! What does this have to do with the legal system? I'm not arguing that women are making all this up, or that emotional abuse is fake or anything like that. I'm saying and i've asked how do we prove this in a court of law. There is no evidence except an accusers testimony. We also have the testimony of the accused saying otherwise(most times). So should we side with either one? I dont follow what you're asking for with 'fair treatment of the domestic abuse.' How can the accused get a fair trial if we give credence to the accusers testimony over the accused? When there is no evidence except an accuser testifying against the accused, how can we in good faith send the accused to jail?
whoa. you know a debate is getting heated when there's a response for each quote. shall we ring the bell and go to our corners for a mo'?
For sho! Neither do I. I'm married to a man. I'm a mama to a man-child. I don't want to see men hurt. But, some feel that someone has to lose, and I don't think that is true. You are really intelligent, KC. This never occured to me. I think you may be right. Thank you. I've learned something.
except this thread is about women with less than good motives.... The person was asking whether women should get as stiff of penalties for sex crimes as men. You then come in and say "no no no, women get worse for not only that but ALSO murder." You sound rather hypocritical, especially since you havent posted any stats backing up either claim. I really hope you arent lumping me in this group of men who've you condemned that are trying keep women down. Nope, i just want a fair trial for the accused(of WHATEVER SEX...why does it always have to come down to men vs women?) That's great. I really hope women don't give up the fight. But i'm not sure how this pertains to the thread?
My neighbor accross the street just got arrested for having "innapropriate relationships" with some of her studets. She is, was, a teacher btw. Kinda scary having somebody like that right next to me and my sister was friends with her two daughter. Hmm I think I'm gonna go find out all the details and what her punishment was like. Scary stuff though.
Heh, the abuser always finds ways to abuse people, it is that mentality that is the real problem, but then how do you control one's thinking? The people are in desperate need of education in this from childhood itself, but then that also does not solve many problems and one good example of this is that racism is still prevalent in some parts of good old USA. So you see, the chicks may keep fighting but it is a never ending battle. Only one way is through the manipulation of the abuser mentality, although it might be frowned upon and lessened by bringing awareness, it does not completely go away, I think women today have more rights than any other time period in human history.
A female teacher at my high school was having a relationship with a 15 year old boy. Last I knew, all that happened to her was that she was fired. I can imagine much worse happening to a male teacher having relations with a female student. It's definitely not equal. Personally, I think if they're above 15 or 16, and it's consentual, then it's okay. As long as the teacher isn't manipulating them by means of the student's grades, etc.
"Do you think women who have sexual relationships with underage males (The most common example of this is teachers and students) should have the same penalties as men who do the same to underage women?" Yes it's called "gender equality"
"Yep, but some on this board would require "proof" that he did anything wrong. Sheesh. Some peope have NO idea of the mindwarping that living with an abusive partner or parent can do to you. "Why doesn't she just leave?" Is one of the most idiotic and naive things people can say about abused womyn. IF they knew the mind set of the abuser, his ability to control, his ability to "Be nice" and give her ideas of his changing, his need to totally control her, no matter what, and her FEAR, they wouldn't ask this question. AND if this were all fair, KC's dad would be in jail. and I'll bet he isn't. WHY? Because contrary to Megara's "men are always the victims" complaints, the abuser RARELY gets put in jail, yet the womyn who feel their ONLY way out, and their ONLY way to protect their children is to harm the abuser OFTEN go to jail. What a fucked up system." Yea. I was in an abusive relationship with this one chick for like a year. Constantly, constantly berating and belittling me for not doing the dishes exactly how she wanted to, or not being thoughtful when I didn't wait on her hand and foot and think of new ways I could serve her. SHe would get so verbally abusive... she was too small to hurt me physically but would threaten ot have people do it. Yet when I left she would turn so sweet to get me back. After a year I finally got fed up and punched her in the head, and moved out. But of course I'm a man, so I can never be a victim. It is my fault I was abused because I "should have seen the warning sings and left." And all this BS that men CAN'T ever be victims is totally untrue. I have first hand experience.
"Girls were seen as "the ones in control" (which is UTTER BULLSHIT) as they were supposed be the only ones to "stop" sexual advances, and even sexual assaults, and he could have gotten quite nasty if I had reported him. I did my best to ignore him, and evetually, he stopped." Sounds like you controlled that situation pretty well. "I am saying that lack of physical marks should NOT discredit a self defense testimony!" Yes they should because they're only supposed to accept "hard facts" and "evidence" in a court room. Someone's word, even under oath, is not "hard fact" unless it is corraborated. "Well, then do we automatically take the word of the accused?" If there's no evidence either way there is no case... case dismissed... "I didn't give stats on murder,(cuz you don't want to read them anyway) on which my point was womyn get harsher sentences. No, Meg, you do always go to the "men are victims" route, whether it be rape "accusations" (what if the man is falsely accused?) or Domestic Abuse ect." Wow. Is a harsher (longer) sentence for a woman really that bad? They got to prison and sit around all day with other women. They don't have to deal with the violence a man would, because, women are enlightened, and never violent, and sweet all the time and never do anything wrong... right... ha ha... "how HARD it is for men (and, tell ya the truth, most men don't feel this way)" Yea we do. We just keep it to ourselves, because if we ever say anything the feminazi's just down our throats and call us "selfish pigs", or my favorite "not a real man". "Womyn don't have to search and look ect to find inequalities, they are there for all to see. " Yes. You must enjoy seeing how your plans have worked, and that men are now second class citizens. You know what's funny is Megara, who was talking about issues relating to TRUE gender equality, and proposed TRUE gender equality, is banned. And I myself, on over a dozen other names, have been banned for talking about TRUE gender equality issues and about how it is now tilted more in women's favor. It seems there is a very strong anti-male bias perhaps on this forums, and on this section especially! And I find it veeeeeeeery interesting how, when we're talking about women who have committed crimes, a hardline feminista comes in here and starts with the "oh, us poor women. we are victims. look at what we have to endure.". A woman shoots her husband and wants to turn around and make herself out to be the victim, not the man who got shot in the gut with a shotgun and slowly bleed to death. Righto. Yea. I love where this country is going.
300,000 men alone get raped in prison i know that, there was a commercial on the tv. Thats in canada. That was last yr. Males that is
Yes, the penalties should be the both, it's the same crime, so I don't think it should matter if it's an older man and younger girl, older woman and younger boy or older woman with girl and older men with boys... it should be the same penalty.
The effects are very different when a woman has sex with a younger man than if a man has sex with a young girl. One of the consequences is that the young man will grow up with an tendency to choose women who are older than he is. The reason the statutory rape laws were initiated was to reduce Teenage Pregnancy. Males do not get pregnant. There should be no penalty for the woman unless she is in a position of authority over the male.