Homeschool and Socialization

I definately think this topic deserves its own thread!

There are several studies out there that indicate homeschooled children are MORE socialized than other kids.

In 1993, Dr. Gary Knowels of the University of Michigan interviewed adults that were homeschooled as children; 94% said they thought they were better equipped to function in the adult world in a healthy, independent manner, and 79% stated that their homeschool experience led to interactions with people from other levels of society.

In 1992, Dr. Larry Shyers, psychotherapist and chairman of the Florida Board of Clinical Social Work, Marriage and Family Therapy, and Mental Health Counceling, found that traditionally schooled children displayed more behavior problems in a free play group than the homeschooled children did. This seems to prove that interaction with adults is more influential to a child's social development that interaction with their peers.

Okay people, let's get into it, lol

 

I haven't read those studies, but what they are measuring is open to a LOT of interpertation. WHO determined what "behavior problems" were?

I have a lot of freinds who home school. I think some of them do a really great job and some do a terrible job. I have seen kids who can't make it in college or the job world because they don't think they have to do anything that doesnt "stimulate or interest" them. Really. I know at least 5 kids who dropped out in the first two semesters of college (and none of them have jobs yet) who complained that the school "made" them take classes which they "weren't interesested in." Life is FULL of having to do things you are not interested in, yet a lot of these kids (most of them "unschooled") don't want to have to do anything with their time THEY haven't "chosen." THAT isn't life. The kids whose home school enviroment was more traditional and included ALL kinds of subjects (instead of just what the child was "interested in") seemed to make the best adjustments to the outside of mama world.

An other problem I have seen with my homeschooled freinds. Lack of contact with people who are different than they are. Most of the home schoolers in our area are white upper middle class and Christian. Some of these kids know NO Black, Hispanic, Muslim, or even lower middle class children. I asked one of the moms I know who home schools and she said "Diversity isn't taht improtant to me, if my children were interested in it, I would find some contact with families of different cultures." That isn't something you can just DO! I also know a homeschooling mom who doesn't teach math because "I'm not good at it." I asked her what would happen if her kids wanted to go into a Technology Field, or Medicine, or anything else which math above the figuring out the checkbook level was needed. She said "I don't think my children will be interested in those fields." She doesn't know and is doing her children a GREAT Disservice. She is also under the impression that her kids will just "pick up" algebra, or geometry or calc "if they need it." Those are things you just "pick up" they need a solid background in YEARS of mathmatics and cannot be learned overnight.

My kids (gasp, public school kids) are freinds with Muslim kids, black kids, rich kids, poor kids, Hispanic kids, Hindu kids. A lot of people whose cultures I don't even know myself. They have a beautiful diversity in public school that I just wouldn't be able to give them myself. I also think trying to "seek out" people of different cultures simply to supply artificial diversity is exploitive of people of those cultures. If you live in a REALLY diverse area and have a lot of diverse freinds, whom you see regularly, it might work, but most adults simply don't.

As I said, I see some excellent home schoolers, but I also see some who have a serious lack of diversity and a lack of contact with people other than themselves. MANY home schooling kids don't have this problem, but in my area it was the single most important thing which convinced me to use regular schooling. JMO, you mileage may vary.

 

I know the studies i sited sound vague--that's because i summarized what i saw in a book, lol; i thought it would be a good jumping-off point for discussion though.


I agree that the parents should have responsibility as to what their child learns--if they are being homeschooled, they are the ONLY ones with the responsibility for teaching their kids everything they need to know. I like unschooling, because it allows for the child to work at their own pace, and study what they are interested in...but i still plan to prod my kids into the next logical direction. Like it or not, kids do need rules, and sometimes they need to be told what to do. Some parents would rather not go to the trouble, and say it's their "learning style." That's like feeding your toddler chocolate ice cream all day, and saying "young children know instinctively what they need to eat, so since he likes ice cream, it must he the healthiest choice for him."

So, don't be stubborn and lazy--read a library book, find information online, or find a tutor if you don't know enough to teach your kid all the subjects they need for a well-rounded education. If you don't make sure your kids at least learn the basics, you aren't really teaching. The information is out there!

There are alot of homeschool parents out there that i would not take advice from, much less take seriously. I know one Christian fanatic who took her children out of school because--heaven forbid--they wanted to show the 12-year-old girls a video about their periods!!! Give me a break, i was having my period before then, lol, and she didn't think her daughter needed to hear about it. Sheesh, obviously she did, because her mother wasn't about to tell her anything.

 

Children are socialized as their parents socialize. At our wedding there were Catholics, Baptists, Jews, Buddists, Pagans, and Witches. There were also Democrats, Republicans, Communists, Socialists, and Independents. There were meat eaters, vegatarians, vegans, and macrobiotics. There were 2 year olds and 20 year olds and 80 year olds and everything inbetween. This is who our son socializes with. If he went to public school when he was 8 he would learn to socialize with 8 year olds who would be predominately white or Korean. We think it's important to keep that social contact with the greater diversity of people that he knows now. We also think it's important to teach all of history, not just what is acceptable to the majority. We will teach about how the Natvie Peoples were treated by the white settlers, not the glossy white textbook version. We will teach him the many many important roles that women have held in history. He will know who Elizabeth Blackwell was. We hope he will learn a much broader view than he would learn in public school. If you don't know enough about a subject, it's your responsibility as a homeschooling parent to learn about it or find someone who does. You can't just not teach math because you don't like it. We plan to unschool. But we will find ways to incorporate things he doesn't like as much into what he does like. At this point, Dakota is only 2. But he is learning about people and life now and he will continue to learn from us as he grows up. I don't care if he goes to college. I hope he does find a job that he truly loves. DH has just such a job. He finds so much enjoyment in what he does and he does not have a college degree. I on the other hand have a degree and a job I hate. It is important to teach kids to do what they love.

Each family has to do what is right for them. For some people public school provides them and their children what they need. For us, it does not. I would never presume to know what is best for someone else's child. And I expect the same from others. I think we have made the right choice for our family. And I trust you each will do what is best for your family whether that be homeschooling, unschooling, public schooling, private schooling, or whatever.

Bright Blessings to all,
Kathi

 

I hope no one thought I was dissing home schooling, because that was not my intent. I think some parents do an EXCELLENT JOB! Like Michelle said, you need to temper it with some discipline about learning, and too much "doing whatever you want" IS the educational equivalent of eating chocolate ice cream all day.

I know plenty of parents who do a good job at home schooling. They are the more disciplined ones who put a LOT of time into the learning. Not just the ones who let their kids surf the net all day. (This was actually one aquaintance's way of "unscchooling' and she freaked out when it was discovered that her 9 year old dd was being cyber molested by a pervert. NO supervision on this child, just the net.)

Absolutely, for home schooling I do think a good rounded math science, reading, literature, social studies and ethics need to be studied, and most of the unschoolers I know only do a few of these, (usually the one mom is most comfortable with.) Like anything else, home schooling can be done very well, or very poorly. It really depends on your skill level as a teacher and what you put into it.

Having a well rounded diverse bunch of people you hang around with always helps, too.

 

I agree


Haven't been home schooled myself, but can relate to the points about socialising. At school I was stuck in a class of other kids my age but that I couldn't relate to. Yet at dinner parties I could easily converse with my parents friends.

I think outside a school enviroment children have more exposure to diffrent ages and groups of people, within the context of 'real life'. So that is probably more helpful to socialising.

 

Here is a great reply to the whole "socialization" issue.


Story by: Marsha Ransom
Source: National Home Education Network
http://www.nhen.org/newhser/default.asp?id=415

I am beginning to tire of the many articles, essays and responses I keep running across on what has become to be known as the "socialization question."

Homeschooling families, please listen carefully: What people refer to as socialization is a non-issue! It has become a buzz-word among the Official Homeschool Nay Sayers Society. When someone asks you the question ("What about SOCIALIZATION!?"), I suggest you begin by asking them, "What do you mean by socialization?" They will more than likely proceed with some variation on the following theme: "You know, having your kids spend time with other kids their age. Hanging out with their friends, stuff like that." At that point do not, under any circumstances respond with, "Oh my little Susie gets plenty of socialization! She's in 4-H and Awanas, and Sunday school and HomeSchool band and she volunteers at the nursing home etc.etc. etc. In fact she has so many opportunities for socialization that I hardly have time to teach her some days..YaDa YaDa YaDa." Why not? Because this is not what socialization really is!

Here is a more appropriate response: "Oh, I think the word you are looking for is socializing. Socialization is actually defined as the process by which the norms and standards of our society are passed from one generation to the next. I've never really thought that a complete strangers six-year old child would be a good source of information on the correct standards of behavior in our family and in society as a whole. As for socializing, I remember from my school days that it was something you weren't supposed to be doing during class!"


Pretty much sums up my thoughts on this.

 

LOL I totally agree


Must remember than answer, I did socology as well and socialisation was the first thing we studied. Should have been more on the ball, but it was a while ago.

 

i wouldn't worry nearly as much about socialization as just about learning difficult subjects - calculus, physics.. and particularly foreign languages. you really need practice in speaking situations that you can't really get just from reading a book. unless you want to invest in some private lessons?

 

Maggie Sugar, I've always had a lot of respect for your posts, and it saddens me to read this one. I don't doubt that you have seen families such as you discribe. This has not been my experience. In fact much the opposite of this has been more common to what I have observed.

You know Maggie, I know at leaast 5 kids who went to public school who dropped out of college in the 1st two semesters. They simply weren't use to having to work hard without being spoon fed everything. I know many more public school graduates who can't (or won't) hold a job! This doesn't mean that every family who sends their kids to public school will end up with these results. The same goes for home education. I also know a lot of families who homeschool in a very traditional "schooling" type of way. many of them have great success in college. Many of them struggle in similar ways to their public schooled peers. Others drop out as mentioned eariler.

The unschooled families I know, who have choosen college, have excelled! My own unschooled children had no trouble adjusting to the structure of college life. In fact they found that most of their peers had more trouble adjusting to college, because they were not use to being self-motivated learners which is required in college. My son who has just recieved his masters, graduated with honors. He choose this path for his life and he knew what he would have to do to achieve it. He will always be a hard worker because he grew up in an enviroment that encouraged a strong work ethic and respected his natural inclinations and giftings.

I agree that some public schools do provide diversity of ethicnic backround. They do not, however, provide diversity of age, which most home educated children do.

Many suburban schools do not have much ethnic diversity. We live in an area that is considered one of the top 5 ethnicly diverse cities in the US. My husband has taught in many public and private schools in this area. Most have little diversity. The school where he taught last year was primarily urban black culture, and as a music teacher he tried to introduce diversity which was not well recieved. They were not even interested in the black roots of jazz and hip hop. Well that is another topic, but my point being that the idea of diversity in public schools is not, in reality, what one would wish it were.

Where awareness and acceptance of cultural diversity is concerned, I believe that it is far more dependent on the attitudes of the parents, than on exposure in an artifical enviroment.

I am happy that there are many educational avenues available to parents today. I think that each family must decide for themselves what will work best for their family. Stero-typing home educators, public, or private schools, will not help young families in making these decisions. There are children who struggle, or fail, and children who succeed or excell, in all types of education. The sucess or failure can not be easily pinned on the type of education alone. I think that the parents and the home enviroment do make a difference. Caring, loving, intelligent parents will more often than not produce caring loving intelligent people, dispite the method (or lack thereof) of education they choose.

respectfully,
~mosaic

 

Hey, I have been unschooled all my life, and would hate if people thought of me as ignorant and lazy. Three of my siblings are adults and have beed sucsessful in college and the work force.

Generalizing only from your experience is very limiting.

 

I'm lucky cause my hubby has taken calculus, biology, physics in university, so he can take over those subjects. We have invested in cd rom courses for spanish and french, so that's taken care of.
The program we are in is a part of our local school district, so we have all materials provided as well as teachers/tutors for any problems we may have. My daughter can also access any school programs (art, drama, sports, field trips, etc) at the local school.

 

well i guess i just know that i've taken calculus and calculus 2 in college, gotten A's in them, and am in NO WAY equipped to teach someone those courses and i know that in 15 or 20 years when i might be expected to teach my child those things, i'll remember them even less.

and a cd-rom can in no way do what speaking with other people and a fluent instructor can. i've tried that before. you learn how to say the alphabet and a few phrases, and as long as people talk to you exactly how the cdrom does, you're ok! but if you have to actually think? doesn't really work out so well

just my thoughts.

 

Then I would suggest that you don't try. There are plenty of ways for a young person interested in calculus to learn without having to have a parent, who does not feel equipped, teach them.

Home education is about finding better ways of learning, and so the learner/student will feel they have internalized the knowlege well enough to be equipped to use it themselves, as well as to help someone else to learn it.

Generally home educated teens are that don't feel they are learning what they will need for college or their choosen field, are apprenticing with someone in that field or taking college or other courses to augment their own studies.

As far as schools teaching a second language....well, I'm afraid that the public schools in the US are not making the grade. Few students acutally retain anything, and of those fewer still can carry on a conversation with a native speaker. In the home enviroment you can begin introducing the second language at an early age and seek out native speakers to emerse the child in the language. Both of these methods have better results than the late introduction methods taught in schools.

I'm sorry, but I just don't think the US schools have a very good track record. European and Asian students have been outshining ours for years!

Just my thoughts and experience.

 

well i guess those are your thoughts then!

and don't worry, i wasn't planning to "try" anyway. but thanks for being so constructive

 

Well, I'm lucky I guess. Between the text materials, the internet and computer programs, teachers and my husband, I'm sure my daughter will be able to learn calculus, biology and whatever else she chooses. As for languages, she is only 8 years old, in grade 4 and she already has a basic grasp of both French and Spanish. I took French from grade 7-11, so I can help her with that, and we also have some French-Canadian friends who are fluent in French, so they help us out too. My father in law is fluent in Spanish, so he helps us out with that. The cd rom programs I've found range from beginners to expert/college level, so it's more than just a few phrases. In comparison to an average public school child, my daugher is leaps and bounds ahead of them in most subjects. Here she is learning to other languages in grade 4, where public school kids don't start French until at least grade 7 and Spanish isn't available until grade 10 -11. By the time she is in high school, she will be capable of taking college level courses in French or Spanish.

 

between the internet and the library a kid can learn anything they want. It just takes a little curiosity and deternination.

 

mtnhighgirl, sounds like your dd has an excellent aray of materials and mentors available to her. She will do well in her educational endevors and I'm sure she will enjoy herself in the process.

Peace,
~m

 

Mosaic, I was not wholesale dissing homeschooling at all! I have seen some homeschooling parents who do a fantastic job, but I have also seen the opposite. I think, just like public education, there is good, there is mediocre and there is bad in each. Although I think many do a great job with homeschooling, I do not think it is neccesarily the "Gold Standard" for every family. I have seen far too many people who really shouldn't be doing it going ahead and "unschooling" children who have done nothing but what they "enjoyed" until their 18th birthday, and then have a horrible revelation when they enter college or the workforce. ("Hey, they asked me to do something I am simply NOT interested in! How dare they. I'm quitting!") NOT ALL homeschooled kids, but some. I know a few of these kids who are in thier mid 20s and have yet to be able to get and keep a job. NOT ALL, but some. They are a far cry from their parents proclaimations that all homeschooled kids will end up at Ivy League schools, and living on the Gold Coast.

I know most of my homeschooling freinds repeatedly talk about homeschooled kids who went to Harvard, became doctors, got a PHD at 17, wrote a best selling novel at 13, ect, but no one wants to talk about the good number of homeschooled kids who really didn't get an adequate education. I know a few......It doesn't mean that public education is the "gold standard" either, but I think we need to take the halo off of homeschooling and admit that some people do a fantastic job, some do an OK job, and there are some who do a terrible job. We can't keep insisting that ALL homeschooled kids get the best education available. SOME do, but some do not.

I have a lot of freinds who homeschooled and presently homeschool (you can't imagine the "peer pressure" in that kind of social situation for both myself and my public educated kids.) I have been a parent for 18 years, many of these kids are now college age and older. Some do very well, some do OK, some are really not doing well at all. To be honest, the numbers of each aren't much different than the public schooled kids. In fact, in my area, the college drop out rate (or the "never going to college rate") among home schoolers is higher than traditionally educated kids, I am only reporting what I am seeing, in a large number of kids. And not just a bunch of 4 year olds, either, I am seeing and describing kids as old as 26 or older.

Homeschooling can be wonderful, for some families, in some situations, but in IL there are basically NO standards for homeschooling, anyone can do it, and they can do anything they like, whether the kids are learning anything or not, and I have seen some really less than good outcomes. I have also seen some really GREAT ones, too. But I don't see better raw numbers in the homeschooled kids than the kids who attended regular schools. I admit, it is probably more attractive to the children (most of them, anyway, I know a couple of kids who have been begging to go to "regular school" for a while and been denied.) but that doesn't mean the outcome is ALWAYS better than traditional schooling. Trad school has PLENTY of problems, but I see it as a wash. I think the problems may be different, but in the long run, I don't see a lot of advantage to the kids who were mediocre or poorly homeschooled at all. And we cannot ignore these kids exist. I know plenty. Not all parents make fantastic teachers. Just "deciding" to homeschool doesn't suddenly make one a natural born teacher.

Not every parent is cut out to homeschool, and not every child is either. This fact shouldn't detract from the kids who do really well in an EXCELLENT homeschooling situation, but we can't sugar coat it, and still insists that ALL homeschooled kids have the best experience that they could have had. F'rinstance, my aquantance who refuses to teach math because she doesn''t "understand" it. NOT fair to her kids at ALL! Yet very common in my area, I don't even want to get into the ones who are homeschooling for "religious" reasons, and what they refuse to teach, or what the consider "education." (Where "science" consists of nothing other than "creation science.")

I am NOT dissing homeschooling. Only drawing attention to the fact that it is not always perfect and not always going to work out better than traditional schooling. It really depends.

I think a parent really needs to ask him or herself if it is a task he or she is up to. If he or she is willing to do what it takes (NO, the grocery store visit once a week does NOT take the place of actually learning real math!) and if the parent is objective enough to say "Hey, this isn't working out, my child really isn't learning what she needs to to get by in the world, I think I need some help, or even need to enroll my child in a place where the teacher knows more about education that I do" if that is indeed the case. Many parents never need to do this, but some do, and I don't think we can ignore this contingent or children who will simply not get the education every child is entitled to.

 

I understand where you are coming from and I can imagine that you have felt a lot of pressure from your home educating friends. For most people there is no "halo" over homeschooling. For most home educated children there is a stigma that still needs to be erased. The average schooled child and the average parent does not have a high opinion of the home educated child and this translates into ridicule, and stereo-typing that is not productive for anyone.

You are correct in saying that home education produces children at both ends of the spectrum, just as school education does. In reality, good education, and success in life (however you measure it) has less to do with how one is educated, and more to do with good parenting.