Civil union bill

Was just wondering what everyone thought of the Civil Union Bill and/or the relationships Bill being passed (the civil union bill allows for homosexual partners to have legal rights the same as 'married' heterosexual couples, and the relationships bill is basically a list of a hundred or so bills to be amended to stop discrimination in a wide range of sectors, including social welfare etc).

I wasn't really sure what it was, but I knew it had something to do with gay people being allowed to get married so I was like, 'yeah about bloody time.'

But Ive just read about it in the herald-I understood it to mean that if you dont want to get married in a church or you just don't want to go through with the whole formal thing involved (for example de facto couples), whether you are gay or not, you can just get a 'civil union' and you will get all the legal rights of someone that is married, and people will (probably) still call you married (more the case for heterosexual couples). But you can ALSO 'actually' be married-if you want to. I guess this means you get married in a church. Then you will 'really' be married, as opposed to 'civilly unionised', or whatever they plan to call it.

I read that and I couldn't help it-I felt a bit disappointed. I can't wait to get married-the emotion, the 'this is the biggest day of your life' kind of stuff, walking up the aisle and seeing the man Im going to be with for the rest of my life......and this bill seems to me to be saying that there's not much point in doing that anymore.....don't think I'm a religious bigot or naive, most people I know including my own parents have been divorced and I really think we've been holding back gay people for too long...I guess it's the fact that ANYONE can do it that kind of bothers me. I just kinda feel like I might as well save myself a bit of money and do that instead, seeing as I'm not going to be any different from people that aren't legally 'married'.

What do ya think? Am I reading it wrong?

 

i think you are reading it wrong.

the civil union is not designed to normalise or devalue marrige at all.

the word marrige to MANY (most) is currently unnacceptable to be used in conjunction with gay couples.

the civil union is the first step towards the legal words "marrige" for gay couples, its a way to keep marrige seperate from civil unions as to get the foot in the door so to speak.

marrige is a very religious thing that is based 100% around the christian religion. and as a result its the christian population that will object to marrige being used by gays.


the whole "marrige in a white dress, chapel..." dream that you have is no less true for civil unions, except they are not allowed to use the name marrige.

it is ultimatly up to the couple how they celebrate their union.

currently you can get a drive through marrige licence. you can go for 5 mins and two people (plus a witness) can get a licence, it is that easy, the civil union will be neither easier nor harder to get.

it is just not controlled in historical terms by the church. it is a non-religious, legal union.

it doesn't mean that people don't love each other as much...


also the divorce rate at 60% and all this BS, i really think that the value of "marrige" is pretty poor now, so i don't understand people arguing that the union will devalue things, if anything it will increase the number of legal long lasting couples in the world.

our society as a whole is stuffing up its relationship commitment, faster than any legal document can catch up.



personally i think the civil union is a F-in joke. its like saying "if you are a jew you should wear this yellow star" but "if you want to you can wear one anyway"

iots jsut putting a big fat label on someone saying "i am gay" its like sending black people to the back of the bus, yeah they still get to where they are going, and its almost the same, but do they get to do it with dignity, or respect as people? no

discrimination is discrimination, and forever we will grappel with pushing the boundarys of acceptance, there will be an issue my childrens generations are dealing with that i cannot personally estimate as an issue now. could be the acceptance of Genetically modified children etc...

who knows.

Doug

 

The first part of that isn't true. Marriage has been around LONG before christianity. Christianity is only 2000 years old (which isn't that much if you consider that Abraham, who started judaism, was around 6000 years ago and there were many religions before that). Marriage is something which has been around in every human society since we were humans. Most people seem to tend to want to mate for life.

Religious people (of a LOT of religions, not just christianity) are against gay marriage as it IS a religious institution. But then a lot of religious people of a lot of religions are against gay people in general. Why should them getting married be any different?

While I agree that Civil Unions are a kind of discrimination, I'm really hoping that by establishing them in New Zealand we would be a step closer to bringing in true equality by allowing anyone to marry, irrespective of sexuality.

However, Civil Unions aren't just for gay people. They certainly are important for them, giving them the rights that they deserve that they otherwise wouldn't get... but Civil Unions can be used for anyone who want to make a valid committment to their partner and be recognised for it by the government so that they get various benefits (next of kin laws etc) but don't want to associate it with a religious ceremony (ie most marriages)

I'm just so fucking over people being dickheads. I'm talking to a friend of mine who went to a pro-civil union march which was organised in response to Destiny Church's anti-civil union protest... she says it was horrible. there were like 8000 people there against it and only a few hundred for it. People need to speak out against discrimination and I wish I was there to do it too.

Look up Destiny Church. They're psycho fuckers.

 

I think that the civil union bill is great in that it will allow such basic rights as allowing to see your partners body at the morgue, and turn off their life support etc...

My major problem is that it doesn't allow marriage. For, we live in a society that is against the mix of church and state, so the religious thing can be discounted from a legal view. Even if wanky Destiny church is too cool, there are plenty other tolerant christians/religions (and destiny, love your neighbour, much?).

I just think that if two consenting, non-related, human adults want to get married then there is no reason whatsoever to oppose that. Finding someone to mutually love is damn hard in this world, and I think we should be praising rather than punishing those that can find it.

 

I have to reply to this just so that my name is at the top of the forum. Its an ego thing I have.

Also, Sophie. I applaud your thoughts.

 

Thanks for your replies. I've thought about this some more...I think there are issues within myself that make me think that marriage has already been devalued to the point of obsolescence, and this seemed like the nail in the coffin, the official statement that marriage is no more than a collection of outdated statutes. But if I celebrate it the way I want(ie the white dress & chapel dream )and think of it as a lifetime thing, then that applies to me, right? Doing it that way might seem pointless to some people now, but I've decided I can afford not to be politically correct about something this important to me.

I still believe that everyone should be allowed to get married. I believe thats what a lot of people want, except that parliament are influenced by religious groups and therefore have decided not to go into the sticky mess of allowing homosexuals to be called 'married' right now. That makes me really sad, as I know that such true love can exist between two people of the same sex, perhaps more often than heterosexual couples seem to able to display that love for eachother.

I never thought about the 'star of David' thing, that makes me sad too because you're absolutely right.

 

taylor actually when i said marrige was based 100% around christianity, i said it and understood exactly what you are saying....HOWEVER

marrige between a "man and a woman" using the word "marrige" is a christian thing in modern society. (it may have come from another word, or thing in history)

but things like having 5 wives are not somthing that is recognised by current marriges, but in many religions it is perfectly acceptable. so IMO those marriges are not accepted by the "christian definition", which we have adopted so readily.

civil unions being for everyone.... YES they are, i totally agree.

however the main group of people effected, and benifited by this bill are gay groups.

currently two hetro people that don't really like the whole church thing, will just get a marrige certificate somewhere other than a church. they have available the legal option of having that certificate. whereas the gay group cannot have that compromise, or option.

its liek the bus boycott, black people could then sit at the front of the bus, it was a victory for the black community, (sure it really wasn't about buses but i will use the metaphor). you could argue it was "for everyone" because now white people could sit at the back of the bus. but in true reality, it wasn't for everyone, it was a victory for racial rights.

so yes, it can be for everyone, but it is really only brought about for one group, and that is the gay community.


i am totally in support for it, but i also don't like sugar coating it to much. i would get a civil union as an adult, only in support for the idea (and the bluring of the lines of gay-vs-straight couples), not because i don't want to be "married" .

all my opinion, i am not claiming to be more correct than anyone else.

Doug

 

marriage does not come from christianity. the idea of marriage (ie monogamy between a man and a woman) is NOT a christian idea. Ever read the old testament? Oh yes, thats the torah... from judaism? remember that? its what came BEFORE christianity... the religion thats 6000 years old.


And trust me... marriage is not a christian thing.

However, the service of marriage has been adopted as a religious thing. And it just so happens that christian groups are the most vocal in opposing gay marriage in our neck of the woods. Other religions aren't in favour of it either, they just happen to be less vocal. Frankly, I'd rather be in new zealand with the destiny church fucktards then in Iran where they execute you for being gay.

 

taylor actually i think i said that christianity didn't "invent" marrige.

looking at the facts.

NZ is a "christian founded" country, as is the USA, Australia.....

the laws, the constitutions/ bill of rights are all founded on the bible (which yes was based on jewish stuff, which was based on older stuff, which was based on older stuff)

but still NZ marrige laws are christian, sorry to say it but its true. we cannot marry five women, kill our wifes if we think they cheated, rape little kids, or have gay marrige.

WHY? because the "christian church ministers, and powers" said "NO F-OFF" just as Mr destiny himself is doing.

it wasn't the jews, nor the budists, nor the islamic's that made our marrige laws what they are. it was christianity.

we are not trying to change islamic marrige laws here in NZ, because "we don't have them" so why change what we don't have.

we are trying to change "christian marrige laws".

and as a non christian i think its a good idea

Doug

 

I get what you both are saying - but doug, couldn't you replace 'christian' with 'westernised'?

 

Well, I reckon you all know what I'm gonna say about this. Go the GAY MARRIAGE! This recent Destiny Stuff is a bit creepy though.

I dunno, between all the slutty, bullshitting, pointless, stylelessness (look, I made a new word!?) of the gay crowd in Dunners I think we NEED some social stability. An I want adoption rights while they're at it!
Native Americans had gay people raise orphans, why can't I do that?

I want to raise a kid like Boo from Monsters Inc!

Incidentally, is that the Sophie I suspect it to be, huh Freezy?

M.

 

hmm

well i guess it could be called westernised, but i don't know what that is, is westernised christanised, or is christianity westernised. ha ha ha ha.

 

I think it is the Sophie you suspect..you are M that keeps the Walrus, right Walrus Keeper? (it's SUCH a small world )

and doug - yeah, true I guess, but I just think we should keep religion out of it. We do not live in a religious society, in fact far from it - separation of church and state etc... I just think using really loaded terms like "christian" confuses the real issue, which is a basic wronging of two people's right to legally confirm their (legal) love. Bringing christianity into it just gives the destiny dickheads more power.

 

good point, totally agree.




Doug

 

It seems everyone who has posted is reasonably open minded,which is so nice to see.Basically I agree with the civil union bill,it gives us all another choice.
But really,can't understand why so many are against gay marriage. Those against claim gay marriage will somehow destroy the family - possibly I'm thick as the proverbial 2 planks,but can't get my head round this one.Eventually I believe gay marriage will be legal,but maybe not soon.As for the morons in Destiny church - anyone visited the parody site?
www.densitychurch.org/
Very funny. You can email jesus. Being curious,I did,& what's more,got a reply!

 

yeah, density are awesome. But really, destiny just make it easy for us & density to mock them. Turds.

 

My friends and I were in Welly central when the march was on, we saw quite a few Destiny Church people walking around, they weren't very hard to miss with the black outfits and all!


I agree with the civil union bill, I think it's a step in the right direction so to speak. If people love one another and are in a committed relationship when it shouldn't matter what their gender is.

 

Ooooh! I can't wait for the reply!

 

My friend who was there with the anti-anti-homo people (ie pro gay people) had "Hey, Hitler called. he wants his uniforms back." as her screen name for ages in reply to those fucking bastards.

 

OOOOh, they are such SMUG cocks.

and Matt - that was awesome. Hello Kitty - I made everyone in the commerce building computer lab look up because I was laughing so hard.