King Blair is Gone! Long Live King Brown!

First of all, we vote for our leaders to make the decisions for us; we elect people whom we see fit to represent us using their own decisions: that's democracy.

Also, our surveillance system is no where near that of Orwell's 1984. We don't have Telescreens in our homes, nor are we restricted from expressing our own individuality. To compare the United Kingdom to an Orwellian context is such a weak excuse for an argument.

You seem to think you know so much about Labour yet I bet this is all because of his decision to go to war. Christ, I bet if we never went to war you wouldn't even be talking about Blair, nor would you care. Try comparing Blair to Thatcher and see who comes off best as what you define a 'fascist'.

 

Haha! Don't try and insult my intelligence to make a decision on my own by saying I've been brainwashed because I don't agree with you.

 

Same old labour goverment same old shit.Just with another ugly face to match labours same old ugly policies.

 

Just "Keep of the Grass" I reckon.

 

WHAT?? here's a list of things that have improved the lives of normal people:

1. shoter waiting times for NHS hospitals from a maximum of 18 months to a maximum of 6 months.
2. unemployment down from 7.2% to 5.5%
3. more help for the poor
4. less people in poverty
5. more emphasis on healthy eating in schools
6. more and more children leaving shools with qualifications than ever
7. affordable housing for key workers, such as teachers and doctors.
8. "the NHS has 32,000 more doctors and 40,000 more nurses than 10 years ago and carries out 500,000 more operations every year" (The Independent, 28th june) - so we have a better health care service than under the Tories.

there are quite a few policies, actually, that help the average person.

shows what you know.

 

AHAH! just as i thought!

HipForums is a fascist web forum!

 

Hello, I'm only interested in your POV

Agreed but some exceptions

Yes but continuing from Thatchers legacy we have converted manufacturing jobs to service industry jobs. Where have all the engineers gone?

How?

Not sure how they measure poverty, it doesn't exist in the UK by my definition.

Thanks to a certain celebrity chef

The exams seem to be getting easier, and qualified for what? Burger flipping? Media presentation?

I wouldn't have thought doctors needed affordable housing.

Those new staff are not trained in the UK, we poached them from overseas.

Just sayin

 

I think they are the ''great achievments'' that are always trotted out but they are true - even the opposition admit it.

Employment has gone down but this is one area I don't support them on - they need to do better. Gaining nearly a million goverment jobs over the last 10 years has skewed the figures. BUT the truth is more people are being employed because there are more jobs out there.

Labour have helped the poor with the minimum wage better education and better facilities for ''mainstream'' schools - increased spending per head - especially in the more deprived areas.

The poorer older people now get more money in their pension and a winter fuel allowance of 200pound [not means tested].
http://www.nao.org.uk/pn/05-06/05061178.htm

Ofcourse there is poverty in the UK it might be ''relative'' but ofcourse there is poverty in the UK. I think we live in a better society now not in utopia.
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/dwp/2006/poverty/tackling-poverty.pdf

I agree that a ''celebrity'' chef boosted the uptake of better food in schools but money had to be allocated and the goverment could have soft peddled Jamie and his petition if they liked. I'd give credit where it is due.

The exams always ''seem to be getting easier'' - but that is a false perception and a diservice to the kids .
Independent monitoring concludes the exams are NOT getting easier kids are passing exams at a better grade.

The independent Qualifications and Curriculum Authority ensures that testing is vigorous and that courses remain as tough as ever and Ofsted check that standards of teaching and discipline in the classroom are maintained

Doctors DO need affordable housing - but they no longer get assistance as a ''key worker'' cuz they earn more money - you have guessed it : because of the Labour party - possibly GPs don't

If you don't have the qualified staff you have to go elsewhere.
It is true the NHS has ''poached'' a LOT of staff from abroad - that is because there were not enough qualified staff here - thanks to the Conservative underfunding in many areas including education.
The No.s of staff needed to push through NHS reform and shorten those waiting times was not going to happen quick enough so unfortunatly ''Poaching'' was required.
Now the figures for UK born and taught staff is increasing.

 

hi, skimpot. just to answer your questions:

true, but i know personally of 4 people in my school who are about to start training as mechanics and engineers and there are probably more than that that i don't know of.

you are right in what you are saying though.
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here are a few things that bring me to this conclusion:

the above was at a time where homlessness was a high and experts were predicting between 80,000 and 90,000 home repossessions in 1992. this was a result of rising unemployment under the Tories.

also:
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/life/benefits/benefits_for_people_over_sixty.htm

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http://www.oxfamgb.org/ukpp/poverty/index.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4070112.stm
http://www.nationalliteracytrust.org.uk/Database/measure.html

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yeah, alright, you win!
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sorry for the length guys, i like things to be in-depth!

 

Well, I'm still not so sure about help for the poor. Not that the previous party were any better. I've seen mothers of many kids at the inland revenue having been overpaid tax credits and having the overpayments demanded back in rather aggressive terms. I don't really know what the answer is for people who wont take responsibility for their own actions, its no good just shouting at them or ignoring them. Maybe you are right honeyfugle and things have got relatively better for the poor. I don't think giving people large complicated forms to fill in is ideal, but I don't have a better idea so I will submit to your view on this.


What you posted about "absolute poverty" I am shocked and horrified. I don't believe in relative poverty but if there are people in the UK without access to Clean Water or Food or a roof over their head or any combination thereof, then I take it back. Will be reading more about this, coz I really would not have put money on that being the case. Sheesh.

And mbworkrelated, what I said about exams getting easier, I don't mean offence to anyone so sorry if anyone in school took any. I took my exams in the 3rd year after the GCSE was introduced. I passed history because the answers were in the questions. I have looked at an O level maths paper and holy balony, there is no way I would have passed it. The switch from o level to gcse was a dumbing down of our previously high standards. It's not an insult to me that the exams I took were easier than those of 4 years earlier, it is just a fact. In the end the brightest will do best in life, regardless of the standards applied in school tests.

I will never forgive Blair and his gang for scrapping clause 4 from the manifesto. They ceased to be labour then and became a watered down version of the tories. Tories with shiny teeth and a nice smile, but tories nonetheless.

He didn't need to suck up to murdoch either, the country was fed up of the government at the time, they would have lost the election anyway.

 

I've seen the rough end to what goes on as well - i'm not suggesting life is perfect - it is though got a darn site brighter.
Yes - the tax credit system needs work - it is not perfect.
What you have to remember is though it is dependent on people applying to the system - the information is out there it just needs to be found.
Yes dissemination is sometimes lacking - but you must seek before you can find.

I've been frustrated at ''the system'' myself - but I can still see with a clear head - what I may want and need is ''out there''.

Well if you are on the street you have no ''clean water'' or food.
Even in this country you CAN have absolutely NOTHING and no prospect of gaining anything.
As they say most people are a few disasters away from destitution.
I'd read up on it.

I think we may have taken them roughly at the same time.
I know [to a degree] the history questions were in the answers [I took that exam myself]- but does that mean declining standards ?.
I appreciate O levels are another country from GCSE's - it is not ''dumbing down though'' - if you can make that case with evidence please do so.
All i'm saying is that every year people state the claims you make and it is shown to be patently untrue.
Our perceptions are clearly not born out with fact.

Well clearly everything is not going to go down well - but sometimes sacred cows need to be put down.

1997 was a lot different than now - yes m,istakes were made but lets put it all into perspective.
To much credance is put on the point you have made.

 

Please read the independent reports that are filed in the link I give above.

There ARE clear similarities between the US and the UK but that is the same of any modern affluent democracy - go check out any of them.
I don't subscribe to your notions because they have been said for decades they are mere cliches.

A lie is a obstruction of telling the fact when you know the fact- I think you are a inteligent guy and know the actual factual ''truth'' and the other arguements - so to suggest lies are being told is lying yourself.

Well maybe we ne need to make the arguement against your rationale but is this the best thread to get into it ?.

Yes it does seem- we are clearly chearleaders to the cause - but make a valid and honest rebutal to what has been said rather than wild generalisations with no substance.

 

I've been homeless. Only for a few weeks, stayed at a friends house and had access to clean water, food and a roof. Even a bed. Its a long time ago now. There's also the Salvation Army, if you can put up with the religous stuff. And shelter. However, I accept that I'm far removed from it now. And I will read up, if access is there and people choose not to take advantage of it (and that does happen) then I won't be so bothered. If it turns out that a person in a city or town is living in poverty and they don't have access to a place of refuge within 10 miles, then that is an outrage. I'll let you know what I find .

On education;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/dumb/story/0,,387858,00.html

look at that paper from 1951, the one from 1977 isn't working for me, shame coz its probably more relevant.

Here's one to try from 1966

http://www.neam.co.uk/1966.doc

Now if you come back and say thats easy I'll believe you, but I bet I could still pass a gcse maths exam, but I would fail an o level.

And Clause 4 was not a sacred cow, it was what made the opposition the opposition. I am a workin class guy, I earn ok but I am working class, I deserve the full fruits of my labour, some manager in a posh office doesn't deserve the full fruits of my labour.

 

Try 2 years on the streets - with all your options to clothes / food / water spent/used up - also options like the salvation army etc are also to a degree ''used up''.
Yes their ARE options open to you if you seek them out/take advantage - but this is not the case 365 days of the year.
Spend 3/4 days with NOTHING and you wil feel like the world has pissed on you from a great height - I assure you.
There are many ''off the radar'' like I was who have no options open to them for various legitimate reasons - suffering like I used too.
Yes PLEASE let me know - it should not be too difficult to find many many stoties like mine.

I've reads articles like that from the gaurdian but they are just that articles bemoaning the credibility of exams today - the same old paradigm.
Do you not think the same kind of articles were not printed in the 50s bemoaning the ''state of education'' ?.
I'm not suggesting there is a line of symmetry between the old days compared to now - just please look at the independent inquires to the standards of today and the recent past.

Well imho it was a''sacred cow'' one they needed to get rid of to become electable.