in case you aren't aware, Koans are riddles that are popular in buddhism, zen buddhism especially. they're riddles given to monks in training, supposedly they don't have an answer. some do, however. "If a tree falls in a forest, and there's no one around to hear it, does it make a sound." Well, let's start with the obvious. it's a forest. there's going to be something that will hear it, even if it's a vole, or a woodchuck, or some parasites in the tree itself, a forest is an ecosystem made up of many many creatures, without which the trees wouldn't survive. secondly, sound is vibrations in air. if you make a sound you create vibrations. it doesn't matter if anyone is there to detect the sound, it'll still be made (unless you're on the moon or something, but as far as i'm aware there are no forests on the moon.) "what is the sound of one hand clapping?" depends what you're clapping it against.
All koans have an answer when you realize the truth of the question Although there is never just 1 answer because all are correct
it's hypothetical. there are no creatures in the forest to hear the tree falling. how could one possibly know if there is a sound if it has not been perceived? now that's blind faith.
i think that's the logic they're trying to break down. you think that the only thing in the forest that can hear a sound would be a human. never mind the thousands of other creatures that make up a forest ecosystem. or the trees themselves. and you can tell there was a sound if you see a broken tree.
well you could try to answer it technically. you could argue about the word sound. doesnt it mean something that can be heard.well if there is no one there then it can't be heard. but if you only place a microphone there. then there would also be no one there and the microphone would probably pick up the sound for someone to hear. and then you could say that it does make a sound. so i think it could make a sound. maybe it sounds like im dodging the question. if you mean "can there be something existing without precieving it?" well to me it looks that way because people share perceptions i think it depends on how abstract you want to go
The nature of a Zen Koan is instantaneous enlightenment. It's purpose is to force the mind to stop short, to crash into a thunderous silence at the paradox, and simply be thereafter. When the mind has finally let go of the 'chattering monkey' of thought, no matter how illustrious and ornate, it is open to the silence. The cup is emptied, the mind is reposed, and all that is left? The stirring of cherry blossoms in the garden.
eugene-i said it was hypothetical, and that in this situation there are no creatures around to hear the tree. when did i state anything about humans? it would take blind faith to accept that there was a sound. shaman sun put it pretty well, nothing more to be said there.
are you overlooking the situation? is it really necessary to use real world examples when words already define the answer.
it still can be heard, it just isn't. now if the definition is something that is heard, then you have an argument
about the defenition of sound benig something that can be heard... seeing that the situation describes that no one is around to hear it. wouldnt that mean there is no sound because it cannot be heard?
Buddha said: "I consider the positions of kings and rulers as that of dust motes. I observe treasures of gold and gems as so many bricks and pebbles. I look upon the finest silken robes as tattered rags. I see myriad worlds of the universe as small seeds of fruit, and the greatest lake in India as a drop of oil on my foot. I perceive the teachings of the world to be the illusion of magicians. I discern the highest conception of emancipation as a golden brocade in a dream, and view the holy path of the illuminated ones as flowers appearing in one's eyes. I see meditation as a pillar of a mountain, Nirvana as a nightmare of daytime. I look upon the judgment of right and wrong as the serpentine dance of a dragon, and the rise and fall of beliefs as but traces left by the four seasons."
Why is it that hardcore religious nuts, believe that their god is the only true one? Ponder that Koan.
So, if you were a child, would a "jet air plain" (whatever that is) be of use to you? And, if you were a child (who doesn't know how to ride a bike or fly a "jet air plain") would a bike be of use to you? HTML:
how do you know what you speak is the truth? have you experienced every part of the bible to be true on your own? or are you just brainwashed and so terrified of being wrong, you feel it is necessary to scare others into believing what you do with threats of hell and torment?
Who is this "I" you refer to? Ah, the realization, all at once, that there is nothing which needs to be saved if everything is insubstantial. "You" are not this ego, and so its suffering, through various studies and practices, becomes less substantial. No longer do you become attached to the suffering of the little "I", the jumble of body/mind rising in and out your awareness. By seeing beyond yourself you thereby witness the suffering of the world, you open up to the universe, all sentient beings and all bits of the cosmos. Transpersonal, or transcendant nature is recognized in an instant, and no longer do fleeting promises of personal safety seem as inticing.
a very wise man told me something recently which might help with the tree in the forest thing... "if you can hear it, enjoy it!" my favourite koan is "if you put two mirrors facing each other 1 inch apart in a translucent (but not transparent) box, what will they reflect?"
my favorite one is about four zen scholar who went together to do silent meditation. they went to a cave with a candle in the middle. suddenly, a wind blow. the first student said 'oh ow, the candle went off.. we should light it back' the second said 'hey.. you aren't supposed to talk' then the third yell 'oh you two are fool! why are you two talking!' after a brief moment.. the last student mumble softly 'it only me who keep silent'.
