I don't think your trying to impose it. But that seems to be what you think of Indian culture. And you would probably like us to think likewise. I think India has been the source of many great discoveries. But I do not think it has a greater access to knowledge than any other place. Through history India has always had a large % of the world's population, so the chances of great men being born there are high to begin with. Likewise I cannot believe this as yet, because it cannot be proven. Yes I know many sages may have said this, but they could have been wrong. In the past opinion was seldom backed by rigorous scientific research like today. Where unless something is proven to exist again and again in double blind experiments etc it is not accepted. Just because the Buddha said so, doesnt make it so. Try asking the land itself if it's India. Go outside into your garden and ask the land whether it is Bharat. I doubt an answer will be forthcoming. Borders change, the name changes. Now an old part of India is pakistan. Anything which changes, which is not eternal is not a law, is not true. It could be so, but it's totally without evidence. I do not even accept there is such a thing as spiritual development.
I don't understand your problem with patriotism. In fact, if you are universal, you are duty bound to love your own country and land and culture as well, as it is also a part of mother earth. And this love in itself automatically makes u a patriot. So u r a patriot, whether u like it or not. And finally, as a universalist, for starters, you and philuk can start protesting against the condition of the aborginals in australia, and the tremondous atrocities committed against them by the britishers, and work for their upliftment considering what the brits have done to them. That would be true karma yoga on your part. Here is a sample.... Anthropologist Walter Roth asserted in 'The Bulletin' in 1880 about the situation in Queensland thus: The blacks have been murdered by thousands ... there is ... wholesale massacre of human beings; a relentless violation of women. [I have] seen the brain of an infant dashed out against a tree after another had been murdered. This is not fiction but the statement of one who, not three years ago, saw in Queensland scrub the sunburned corpses of men and women and children who had been murdered by officers of 'justice' and left for the crows. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_Australians I stated this stuff in a thread in an another forum, which made all the brits attack me, and finally I was banned from the forum by the british administrator, while all the brits who used vitriolic language against me, are still there on the forum. In fact, after i was banned, an idealistic intellectual over there and others as well, started protesting against my ban, calling my words in my threads posted over there 'extraordinary ' , and penetrating,'good', and stuff and praising me . He also questioned why the others were not banned, even thought they started insulting me first. Even one of the brits who attacked me the most, stated that I was very bright, and had the potential to contribute much to that forum. It raged on a for a while, with one of the guys stating that the british administrator was treating the forum as his own sandbox. I was really amused and a bit embarassed as well with all the attention. I am glad that my ban too brought a lot of good to that forum . If u want , I can give u the details in a pm.
Are u sure . How many places do u know have a Krishna, or a Buddha, or a Ramana Maharhi or a mata amritanandamayi or any of the sages mentioned above , both qualitatively and quantitatively. Also , it is a fact that without indian mathematics, Europe would still would have been in the dark ages. The concept of zero, decimal system , algebra, quadratic equations, calculus, trigonometry all started in India. India was the trailblazer in science, and prepared the foundation and base for it, and others just build upon it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achievements_of_ancient_Indian_civilization http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_ancient_India http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_mathematics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_astronomy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_physics#Indian_contributions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_metallurgy_in_the_Indian_subcontinent Well, we follow both logic and intuitions. You are saying all this stuff because u have never met an enlightened master and experienced his or her vibrations. I have and I clearly perceived it as being different from the others, and the time I spent with them was the greatest education of my life which helped me tremondously, along with other things. They truly were the embodiments of wisdom,strength and unconditional love, buddhas themselves. There is a western enlightened master called Eckhart Tolle, who attained enlightenment in a very unorthodox manner. Spent some time with him, go through his books, and you will understand what I am saying. Not only pakistan, but afghanistan too was Indian. The population over there was hindu and buddhist, till the islamic invasion which wiped them out, and now the bamiyan statues are testimony to the indian civilization over there. Well then, if you are not a hypocrite, then you should always be then loyal to the truth which u can perceive through discrimination and your intuitions, come what may, and follow it to the very end. This is the path of the sannyasin, who follows staunchly only that which is eternal and true, and gives up the false. Considering this fact, then you should renounce sense-enjoyments, as we all know that all objective pleasures result in pain and misery in the long run, and seek the permanent happiness and truth within , which you can perceive through enlightenment, like the buddha and ramana maharshi did, if u dare...... Spiritual development is based on development of character, nobility, goodness, strength, and mind control leading to the cessation of the mind, which results in enlightenment and permanently infinite happiness and bliss. Also , if u do not accept that there is such a thing as spiritual development, why on earth are u in a religious forum!!!
India was China's teacher in religion and imaginative literature, and worlds teacher in trigonometry, quadratic equations, grammar, phonetics, animal fables, chess as well as in philosophy, and she inspired Boccasccio, Goethe, Schopenhauer and Emerson. ---Lin Yutang ( chinese writer ) It does not behove us, who were only savages and barbarians when these Indian and chinese people were civilized and learned, to dispute their antiquity. --- Voltaire. The Indian way of life provides the vision of the natural, real way of life. We veil ourselves with unnatural masks. On the face of India are the tender expressions which carry the mark of the Creators hand. ---- George Bernard Shaw (Irish dramatist, literary critic, socialist spokesman ) " The motion of the stars calculated by the Hindus before some 4500 years vary not even a single minute from the tables of Cassine and Meyer ( used in the 19th century ). The Hindu systems of astronomy are by far the oldest and that, from which the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and even the Jews derive the knowledge." --- Jean -Sylvain Bailly ( french astronomer ) Medieval Arab scholar Sa'id ibn Ahmad al-Andalusi (1029-1070) wrote in his Tabaqat al-'umam, one of the earliest books on history of sciences: "The first nation to have cultivated science is India. ... India is known for the wisdom of its people. Over many centuries, all the kings of the past have recognized the ability of the Indians in all the branches of knowledge. "The kings of China have stated that the kings of the world are five in number and all the people of the world are their subjects. They mentioned the king of China, the king of India, the king of the Turks, the king of the Persians, and the king of the Romans. "... They referred to the king of India as the "king of wisdom" because of the Indians' careful treatment of 'ulum [sciences] and all the branches of knowledge. "The Indians, known to all nations for many centuries, are the metal [essence] of wisdom, the source of fairness and objectivity. They are people of sublime pensiveness, universal apologues, and useful and rare inventions. "... To their credit the Indians have made great strides in the study of numbers and of geometry. They have acquired immense information and reached the zenith in their knowledge of the movements of the stars [astronomy] ... After all that they have surpassed all other peoples in their knowledge of medical sciences ..." The history of India for many centuries had been happier, less fierce, and more dreamlike than any other history. In these favourable conditions, they built a character - meditative and peaceful and a nation of philosophers such as could nowhere have existed except in India. --- H.G. WELLS ( SOCIOLOGIST, AND HISTORIAN AND AUTHOR OF "TIME MACHINE " AND "WAR OF THE WORLDS ") It will no longer remain to be doubted that the priests of Egypt and the sages of Greece have drawn directly from the original well of India, that it is to the banks of the Ganges and the Indus that our hearts feel drawn as if by some hidden urge. --- Friedrich Meyer I like to think that someone will trace how the deepest thinking of India made its way to Greece and from there to the philosophy of our times. --- John Archibald Wheeler ( Theoretical Physicist, who coined "Black Hole " ). In India I found a race of mortals living upon the Earth, but not adhering to it. Inhabiting cities, but not being fixed to them, possessing everything but possessed by nothing. --- Appollonius Tyaneus ( Greek thinker and traveller, 1st century A.D. ) Now it is not good for the Christian's health to hustle the Hindu brown for the Christian riles and the Hindu smiles and weareth the Christian down ; and the end of the fight is a tombstone while with the name of the late deceased and the epitaph drear , " A fool lies here who tried to hustle the east". --- Rupyard Kipling Temporal notions in Europe were overturned by an India rooted in eternity. The Bible had been the yardstick for measuring time, but the infinitely vast time cycles of India suggested that the world was much older than anything the Bible spoke of. It seems as if the Indian mind was better prepared for the chronological mutations of Darwinian evolution and astrophysics. ---Guy Sorman ( author of "Genius of India ")
This is true. Being a patriot of universality is a fine thing. Why is it? because it is the truth. Modern science, and all spiritual masters have proclaimed this truth. However, patriotism of a country is not a fine thing. Why is this so? because countries are not the truth, they have been invented in the minds of foolish and deluded men. Yes I will, but not as a britisher as you call me. I will protest at the conditions and actions man has committed against man. I feel the same pain, and dislike of mistreatment to any human being regardless of sex, race, nationality etc. Mistreatment of man by man has been proven through history to be common place in almost every known culture and country. By every race. I have not to my knowledge met an enlightened individual such as the Buddha, I must admit this. But he always taught not to accept his teachings on mere hearsay or belief. Nor on feelings and emotions. But by putting them into practice, by considering them logically. Intuition is meant to be receiving input and ideas without knowing exactly how and where you got them from. It is not proven to exist, and who knows if these things come from a valid source. We have limited knowledge about our existance, and not the wisdom to know. The best bet is to relay on logic, backed by experimental evidence. There are statues of Stalin as well, and his great nation called the USSR. That's all gone now. Because it only existed in the mind of foolish and deluded men. Impossible to know, maybe Europeans would have idiscovered all these things. I have read all about Eckhart Tolle. I only follow logic, intuitions are non-sense. People have had intuitions in the past to sacrifice humans and animals to their God. What about all those Greeks who had intuitions about Zeus, what happened to that guy? Suppression seems to be an unhealthy habit. Look at the problems catholic priests have got themselves into, after renoucing sexual pleasure. I think noticing the temporal enjoyment, how it ebbs and flows is a more successful approach. When this is acheived desire should lessen. When you realise sense enjoyments never last. Just renoucing it for the hell of it, because someone said thats a good idea. Without realising why, is not the path for me. Character, nobility, goodness, strength. These things are all in the eye of the beholder. Mind control leading to the cessation of the mind. How can you control the mind to get rid of the mind. This is like making the thief the policeman to catch the thief. You will run around and around in circles. The mind is the one attempting the mind control. Enlightenment in my opinion has nothing to do with mind control. Enlightenment is finding what is true and what is not. I think it's coming to a stage of realising the mind is just thoughts. The mind cannot be found to exist when awareness is put upon it. Just thoughts which come and go. Controlling the mind is mere illusion, as there is no mind to control in my opinion.
I agree with what you're saying here about nations Phil - they're purely a human invention. It's sad to see people so brainwashed by all that, but it's a widespread problem in today's world.
Understand the context,my foolish friend . When I mean that you are a universalist, you will also have to love your own land and culture along with others, and that in itself makes u a patriot. When you become a universalist, you become a patriot automatically and simultaneously. Is this so hard to understand !!! Great, protest then, and make sure that these poor people and their culture and heritage is taken care of and protected as well. Its long overdue really resulting in much suffering and pain. I have done my part in attracting attention to their plight and will keep on doing so. Now do yours. And unless u don't do it, I have no hesitation in calling u a hypocrite. I will be putting a new thread on this in an appropriate forum in the hip forums. Are u sure about that. Do you know what the europeans have done to asia, africa, north america, south america and australia, and even among themselves !!! It is there for all to see. I have no problems with white men. I don't think I am a racist. Thomas Paine is an upaguru of mine.He is a white man and I love him deeply. If he comes before me, I have no doubt that I will fall on his feet. However I will condemn all those who commit atrocities and injustice. And did I say otherwise. Vivekananda himself as a teenager , tested Ramakrishna to the core ( he too welcomed these tests ) rationally and it was only then , did he accept Ramakrishna as his master. Vivekananda himself has stated that one ought not to accept anything blindly from the guru and should think for oneself. The buddha teaches one to think logically and not to accept something out of blind faith or respect for that person. And same did Ramakrishna, and my own master as well, Devamrutha. Oh don't worry, intuition exists and I have experienced it myself with full awareness, in the company of my master. And I have seen it in full bloom in other yogis as well. We believe in both logic and intuition. You keep identifying western civilization with the eastern. The west is just hooked on logic, while the east gave proper due to both logic and intuition and studied both deeply. You still have a lot to learn, kid. I had an interesting conversation with bbb, on the subject of intuition. Perhaps he can teach u some preleminary stuff. I don't think so, because they have been using the roman numeral system for centuries, and they did not have also the concept of zero. Also the fact that they lived in the dark ages , which stifled and destroyed all intellectual vitality and free thought eradicated any possibility whatsoever , that something like the zero and the numeral system and algebra would have been developed by them. Even the pope condemned the Indian numeral system as the devils numbers, when it came to europe. But still u have not understood the essence of what he taught, and did not even practice it . Who told you to renounce. First enjoy the pleasure of spirituality, and then you will automatically have no more interest whatsoever in materialistic pleasures. The animal is interested in sense pleasures and cannot understand the finer pleasures of the intellect. The scholar , who is a bit more refined, is more interested in intellectual pleasures, as he derives more pleasure from it. For him intellectual pursuits give him more pleasure than sense-enjoyments . Similarly the sage , who is most refined of them all, is more interested in spiritual pleasures and the bliss and peace and joy that comes from spirituality, and hence he won't be interested in mundane pleasures like material pleasures. No need for suppression. Just the taste of spiritual bliss, is enough to lead one away from addiction to sense-enjoyments. Once you have enjoyed nectar, will you ever be interested in gutter water!!! So I guess according to u , there is no moral difference at all between hitler and martin luther king. This is beyond you , I understand. For this you have to get an intricate knowledge of the mind, yoga, meditation and Indian psychology. The mind is but thoughts, and cessation of thought and consequently desire, is what is the issue over here, when I am talking about mind control.It is a bit deep and detailed , and I will be putting the stuff in an another thread in the future. If you had read Eckart Tolle, as you claimed you would have understood this, but u haven't.
Thanks for calling me a lier, I have read the teachings of Eckart Tolle. As I daily practice Atma Vichara, a form of self enquiry perscribed by Sri Ramana Mahirishi. The teachings of Eckart Tolle, he admitted himself are in great part influenced by Sri Ramana Mahrishi. So I decided to stick with the source. Rather than study indepth Eckart Tolle. But I am familiar with what he taught. What Tolle taught seemed to myself nothing which hadn't already been outlined already in great depth. The basic principles of Eckart Tolle (source wiki) You are not your thoughts. Only the present moment exists Accept the present moment. Observe the pain-body. In my previous post I wrote, Which is pretty much Tolle's teachings wrote in a different way. You responded The teachings imo is not about a cessation of thoughts and desires. It's coming to the firm awareness that you are not your thoughts and desires. Sri Ramana Mahirishi was not a fan of yogic mind control methods. He never thought you could control the mind. Sri Ramana taught awareness of the 'I' thought, and the subsequent realisation it does not exist. Therefore I very much doubt Eckart Tolle was in favor of yogic mind control. You disagreed with this sentence I wrote, and responded by saying, The above sentence about mind control, about the thief becoming the policeman to catch the thief. These are not my words. This is quote from Sri Ramana Mahrisihi, when asked how successful mind control was in the process of destroying of the mind. Tolle's teachings are in much part the same as Sri Ramana Mahrishi's And you say,
There was a difference yes. Hilter was a fool. He thought the white man was different and superior to other human beings. Whereas Martin Luthur King knew the truth. That all men were equal. The truth is what 'IS'. It's neither good nor bad. Some people thought and still think Hitler was a great and good man. Their morals are different to yours Niranjan. Morals change, the truth doesn't. Thats why I believe in things proven to be true, proven to be beneficial.
Sorry to butt in here, but to me this looks like a few somewhat glib cliches, and is also basically an anti-life statement. Why should we assume only the present moment exists? Can you pin down 'the present moment? I can't. It's pretty obvious to anyone that we are much more than our thoughts - without the brain and body there would be no thoughts. Why not look on the bright side rather than 'observe the pain body'? Seems Tolle is simply rehashing the old and failed philosophies of yesterday.
Currently I have read little, and know little about the condition of aborginals in australia. As I said I dislike the mistreatment of any human being or animal. I would be more than happy to support your thread when it is posted. I am but one man Niranjan, I do not know the political and social condition of many people. I try to live the teaching, do unto others as you would have them do unto you I am not a great man, I am not someone capable of solving all the world ills, perhaps not even my own. Therefore if i am hypocrite to you, then that is your judgement.
As a universalist I love those things which are universal. Which for example is the divine essense in all men. But for example if I was a universalist in Germany when Hilter was in power in Germany. Should I love Hilter and his culture? I love universal truths, I do not believe bounderies and countries are universal truths. Therefore I neither support them or love them or care about them.
And by mind control , I do not mean egocentric methods to still the mind, which will only strengthen the ego. It is a process through dispassion and practice , as taught by krishna , to master the mind, or to come to a state of no-mind, where there is no thoughts,desires, mind or ego. As Krishna himself says to Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita ... "The mind is indeed difficult to control, Arjuna, but through dispassion and practice, it can be controlled. " Self-control and restraint of the senses has been taught by both krishna and Buddha. The pure mind, or the no-mind, it the goal of mind control. Well, Eckhart too talks about the need for ceasing the relentless thoughts of the mind, which then unfold into desires and ego. He emphasizes mainly zen, or living in the present moment . And according to Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, the Indian enlightened master, and founder of the Art of Living Foundation ... "Living in the present moment is meditation. "
Ah, then I mis-understood you. I agree, Sir Ramana Mahirishi taught it is better just to 'be'. To begin with effort is needed, but after a stage effort itself becomes impossible.
And what is your yardstick for determing this difference! If the truth is not good ,what is it then. Why go for it then !!! Why do anything in the first place. The vedanta says that there is no sin, only error. And we make errors mistakes due to ignorance. So you can say that knowledge or wisdom is good, and ignorance is evil , in the ultimate sense.
The great ones accomplish things by virtue of their own potency, and not through external instruments. --- Subhashitam.
And is germany just nazi and hitlerian culture ? What about its music ( I believe bach is from there ) , what about its philosophy and philosophers in Goethe, Arthur Schopenhauer , Nietzche and others. I am sure there are a lot of positives in german culture as well. Ramakrishna used to emphasize the positives and good in anyone he met, no matter how wretched or evil he was, and by that constant emphasis he increased the positives in that person ( however negligible ) which then eclipsed the negative. There is divinity and beauty in everything, and one ought to find it and bring it out.
So use your own 'potency' and stop hiding behind the words of others, which is all you are doing here. You have yet to present a single original thought of your own. Other than giving the impression of a nationalistic racist bore.
Nice to see u back, bbb. As for the words, I will keep on expressing them in appropriate places, along with my own words. It is my intention to bring the words of the masters to all. And I believe i have given my own thoughts as well, even if u don't think so. I think the reason for your attack on me is because you are pissed off by the fact that I attacked british imperialism. Thats great. You can expect more such posts of a similar nature from me in the future, from now onwards.
You answer it for me. I prefer using the word truth instead of good. We are not differing I believe. The words used are mis-leading us. I believe knowledge or wisdom is the truth. And ignorance is those things which are untrue. As someone in the west we connect the words 'sin' and 'evil' usually as the same or similar things. So if vedanta said sin does not exist, we would say evil does not. Due to how the Bible has defined these terms.