So, this isn't exactly a pagan topic. It's probably more of a shamanic topic. But paganism is one of the closest things I could find to shamanism in the Philosophy and Relegion forums. And I have a slightly pagan/animist worldview. So I felt inclined to post my question here. I have heard that salvia divinorum (an extremely powerful hallucinagen whose effects last for about five minutes) has been used ritually for centuries by aboriginal mexican shamans. I have used it casually a few times, and I've definitely felt a strong spiritual element to my trips, as far as coming into contact with "alien" beings from other planes or dimensions of reality (or from my subconscious or whatever, if you think I'm being too woo-woo about this). But these beings have always scared the crap out of me in every trip I've had. I don't know weather they're demons of some kind or guardians keeping me out of a dimension I'm not supposed to be in or an aspect of my subconscious telling my conscious mind that its not supposed to be seeing what it's trying to see (what I've heard some neo-pagan-wiccans refer to as the "Guardian at the Threshold"). Now I have read some accounts of other people's experiences with salvia. Accounts from both people who have used it in a ritual setting and people who have done it casually (as I have). Usually, the people who have done it casually report being terrified by the experience (just like I have been). But the people who have done it in a ritual environment have without fail reported having wonderful, beautiful, and profound experiences from it, from which they gain deep insight about themselves and the nature of consciousness/reality. And so, while I don't think I ever want to casually smoke salvia again, I am very interested in the ritual use of this plant. Does anyone have any experience with using salvia ritually? Or any thoughts on the matter? Or any thoughts on how to construct a safe ritual setting for the spiritual use of it? Thank you for listening to me. Take care. -Bubble
IMO salvia is a deliriant. Even if there is a traditon of its ritual use, we would be better off using more useful substances of which there are many. The plain fact is that in the past people used all kinds of stuff to induce some change of consciousness. To-day we have better substances which are much more useful than salvia. The experiences it induces are never very clear, often confused and frightening. You can't really make much of it. Surrounding it with some ritual wouldn't change the basic effect of the thing. It can give a confused flash of something, but not much else.
I disagree about salvia not being a wisdom plant. The one time I did 10X strength salvia, I felt like it totally deprogrammed my mind. I felt the way that I did when I was an infant before I learned to talk (though I had forgotten what it had felt like to be an infant until I did salvia). I was completely aware of my surroundings but I didn't have any associations with them. When I saw a chair or something, I just thought of it as a big brown thing and not what I'd been programmed to think it was. I was also totally and consciously aware of the subconscious activity going on in my brain with regard to the formation of words before I said them (which kind of frightained me, a little, as I am not used to seeing this part of my mind). I feel like I learned so much about my own mind and how it works while I was on salvia. And for the next hour or so after my trip, I found that I could both think and speak with much greater control and elequence. However, I did encounter very frightaining beings on my trip. They were like a kalidiscope of arms with faces on their hands. And I cannot emphasize how terrifying they were. I got the strong sensation that they were trying to communicate to me that I was learning things that I shouldn't be. That this was knowledge meant for the newborn and the dying, and not me. I had entered into their relm and I was not supposed to be there. I remember that I was talking a lot to my friend, during the trip, but I cannot for the life of me remember what I said. But he tells me that I was saying "Woah... Do not smoke this... Do not smoke this... I mean, you can smoke it if you want... I just wouldn't reccomend it..." I am of the opinion that it was probably these hand-beings trying to communicate through me, to my friend, not to enter into their relm (but who knows; maybe I was just freaking out a little). I've done 5X strength salvia a few times since then. I found that the experience was very mild and non-overwhelming. However I didn't gain anything from it. Also, I could have tripped a lot harder on 5X if I had decided to smoke more than I did (I only did one or two hits). However, after a certain point, I always encountered the exact same, terrifying kalidiscope-of-arms-with-faces-on-their-hands beings, again. And I didn't want to venture any deeper. Appearently this is a common theme in salvia trips (encountering terrifying beings of some kind). I saw them as hand-people, but I have a friend who saw them as flowers with fangs that wanted to eat him. I have another friend who has a pillow with a picture of the different zodiac signs on it (which he stared at when he was on salvia). He saw the beings as the different zodiac signs, and they told him that if he went too far into the "other side" (as he called it), he wouldn't be able to go back. This is one of the reasons I want to do salvia in a ritual environment. I feel like people who have been using it ritually for centuries would know how to enter into the dimension that these beings exist in safely and respectfully. And, from a purely secular point of view, the environment which one is in tends to have a strong effect on any psychadellic experience. And a ritual environment specifically designed for tripping on salvia (an environment which has been designed over centuries by people experienced with the plant) would likely lead to a positive experience. But I ramble on. Take care and I hope all is going well. -Bubble
One other thing. In your last post, you mentioned something about there being a lot of other substances around, today, which are much more useful than salvia. Which substances would you personally reccomend for wisdom experiences? Peace, -Bubble
Bubble - First, thanks for the good wishes - I send you mine too. I hesitate to recommend anything - I can only quote from my own experiences over time. But one point I'd like to make is that when you do salvia extract that's 10x you're deviating far from what would presumably have been traditional patterns of use, which I assume would mean using only the leaf. Myself I used the leaf only once and had an incredibly powerful experience of mingled horror and delight - it was not something from which I learned much, other than that I dislike the effetcs of salvia, even though no doubt it was cosmic in scale. Others I know have had terrifying experiences, and one person smashed up their flat and had no memory of doing so after it had worn off. Personally, I dislike fast acting substances such as salivia and dmt. It can be very disorienting, and is over so fast that one doesn't get time to fully grok the levels to which these things propell your consciousness. With salvia, I also experienced an unpleasant physical effect, which I can only describe as 'prickly heat', so I think it could possibly be bad for the body with continued use. Psilocybin mushrooms and lsd are the things which gave me the clearest experiences in the past, although these days I don't really use psychedelics any more - although who knows, perhaps one day I will have the urge. The reason I am off them is simlpy because I feel I've seen enough, and I just don't have much interest in them these days because my energy is more focused outward - transmisssion rather than reception. The only other psychedelic type thing I've found useful is cannabis. Some people I know these days are very into ketamine. From their talk it appears that when you come down you pretty much loose connection with whatever it was. Again, I'm not exactly rushing to try it. Anyway, my advice would be that if your going to do salvia, don't do too much, and always ensure you have someone there who is not on it to look after you in case things should go amiss. That is good advice where all psychedelics go. I have personally had bad trips, and had to deal with others on them, and it is no fun. I'm only talking here about lsd etc. But it seems from the experience of my friend who smashed his home up, that salvia could also lead to violent behaviour, even in people like my pal who are normally mellow and peaceful. Anyway, I'm not preaching - it's yours to decide what you want to do. But I'd say it would be almost impossible to do anything of a ritual kind that would make salvia more controlable or tame.
Try looking for articles on the shamans of the Oaxacan peninsula (I think that's how it's spelled) where salvia use was fairly prolific until the Spanish showed up. Salvia is OK, but not great. personally, in a shamanic context I much prefer ayahuasca (DMT/harmaline alkaloid mixture) or peyote (hard to get if you're not a Native American). I've had VERY powerful results with ayahuasca, as well as Datura sp. (D. stramonium and D. inoxia). I've yet to try a very potent ayahuasca brew thatcombines the two - a combination of DMT, harmaline, atropine and scopalamine. Sounds like a really powerful combo, but NOT for the inexperienced.
dmt is a true indole ring hallucinogen. and although IMO just a flash in the pan, can be ok. Datura is exreme and dangerous. Even worse than salvia.
I don't see how anyone could use salvia for rituals. I've tried it on a dozen or so occasions and I can say with some authority that maintaining a ritual state of mind would be impossible. The last time I smoked salvia I started on the couch after getting home from work, after the third mini-trip I ended up in the corner naked crouched like an animal ready to pounce. I was lucky that I was alone that night.
Salvia isn't used ritually in the way it is in the west - i.e smoke a fuckload of extract out of a bong. Normally, the shaman will brew a tea or hold a quid (folded up bundle of leaves) in his mouth for a while. This induces a MUCH more tranquil journey, instead of being strapped to a rocket you journey quite peacefully into "salvia-space". And BlackBillBlake, datura may be dangerous for the inexperienced, I agree. The important thing is to let go and just accept what the gods want to show you.
Well I have to say that I didn't smoke a "fuckload of extract", I just used the regular strength dried leaves and it was plenty. The main thing that I didn't like about salvia is the come down. For about an hour after I would smoke it I felt very irratable and edgy. Also, I have to point out that you said the datura "may be dangerous for the inexperienced". I think it's fair to say that datura IS dangerous for anyone who tries it. I'm a very experienced tripper and I wouldn't touch the stuff.
