Dolphin for breakfast anyone ?

we had neighbors that raised rabbits for food. pretty good, really.

 

I always knew the masculine thing seemed a bit wrong

 

Yeah its pretty common

 

Yeah, rabbit isn't bad. Bit stringy (but then again I had wild rabbit).
Not something I'd eat on a regular basis, but nowhere near as nasty as pork or poultry.

 

i'd never heard of it, my whole life, except in bugs bunny cartoons and hillybilly jokes.

 

If God's a twat then all heterosexual males who've not engaged in anal sex are still virgins....

 

The important distinction is this: when we talk about cats and dogs and pigs, we are talking about protection, but when we talk about intelligent species we are talking about rights. Why do we assume humans should have rights? It's because they have an advanced psychology and are capable of experiencing dread, misery, depression, mortal fear etc. Creatures with less well advanced brains do not display these characteristic mental abilities, so while we can talk about protecting them from unnecessary pain and suffering, it does not make any sense to say that they have rights comparable to those we give humans.

The most highly advanced mammals like the higher primates - chimpanzees, humans, orang-utans, gorillas etc - and perhaps dolphins, share these psychological capacities, experience existence in very similar ways, and are capable of advanced self-awareness. Knowledge of their conditions of life can affect their psychology and cause mental not just physical suffering. This is why it makes sense to talk about humans having "rights" and for precisely the same reasons it makes sense to talk about dolphins and apes having "rights" whereas it's difficult to imagine that we would extend these human-like rights to cats or rabbits.

 

Well, im going to defend my corner here, even though im the only one in it and usually am in these discussions Hey, it takes all sorts

Well as i said you cant argue with the science and i certainly accept that dolphins will feel things more in the way a human will feel things

However saying that pigs and cows cannot experience dread, misery depression and mortal fear doesnt fit, in my eyes. For a start ive witnessed the suffering of these creatures first hand, and i also spent much time with them whilst living in Brittany, as there was a dairy farm next door. Im not saying they feel these things exactly as a human does, because thats silly. But they DO feel them. Ive SEEN it. Cows know theyre going to slaughter for example. A cow can cry tears. A cow CAN suffer from depression.

And ill even extend this. A rabbit can fear. You should have seen this place yesterday, it was madness with all the fireworks going off. Now youre going to say these are just basic instincts, but when they became unsettled very early in the morning, before any fireworks actually went off, then whilst it was happening they lept into our laps, eyes wide, panting...it seems like fear to me. They were feeling it. Albeit in a very primitive form compared to what we experience

And i personally obviously believe this creates rights. Not that rights are solely about intelligence as ive said...but certainly to assume a cow cannot experience something like depression is a mistake, imo, ive witnessed these things

I realise other species actions can sometimes be misinterpreted, i know the tendency is to relate what we see to our own feelings because thats all we properly know...But even aknowledging that, there was no denying, the cows of my old neighbours Brittany farm felt a form of what you described

I do agree a dolphin is different though, and if we really must do this in "stages" and respect only the "higher" lifeforms for now then protection for dolphins, apes etc is of course a good thing

As ive said before though, other animals are, for the most part, underestimated. This i know

From another angle, who is to say the human way of experiencing the world is the ultimate, greatest and most respect worthy anyway? And that our own perception and judgement of intelligence grants torture and death or life and rights? I prefer to respect all life...to be safe

 

Oh my that came out LONG!

 

I'm sure we underestimate the ability of other mammals to experience emotions very similar to our own. The point I was trying to get across was that in species with an advanced psychology it's not just that they suffer fear, pain stress etc, which are common to all the mammals, but that they know they are suffering fear or stress, and may have some awareness of what it is that's causing it and perhaps even what needs to change in order to stop it. I would suggest it's only with such second-order awareness that it makes sense to begin talking about rights rather than protection. But yes it's a fuzzy line with no clear boundary

 

So are you!

 

I sure can ramble when i want to

You have a good point with the self awareness thing. Something like that would be so hard to measure, and yes it is fuzzy. I guess its about the caution thing and largely depends on a persons respect for life in general. I personally have just used the things ive seen and know myself as evidence, which i guess is all a person can do. I see a cow crying, looking miserable, crying out in pain, and i think "damn, no thanks". Just as i see a cow obviously loving, especially their calves who i noted were loved and defended completely usually by their mothers...and think "What an honourable and respectable creature". Its all about vision

Now if someone wants to kill an animal...say i see a fisherman at the lake, he catches his fish, slaps it over the head and takes it home for tea and thats that. I can most certainly respect that. Fully. It was quick and simple, it was one fish, and the guy wanted a meal (even though i personally wouldnt kill a fish) Its mass production, mass killing, torture and complete lack of respect that REALLY get me. No matter what the species, its just nasty. Which is protection and not human right, youre right

Ive gone off on a tangent again...Hmmm

 

Well that was somewhat uncalled for

:tongue:

 

Well no offence, but you called for it!

 

I think we should take it one step at a time and base any decisions we make on evidence. Decades of research have gone into studying the psychology of advanced mammals like dolphins and especially our fellow primates and there's a very good case to be made that they have an advanced consciousness and abilities not very different from ours.

When people don't even understand what the difference is between killing a dolphin and killing a fish then we have a very long way to go, and I think it's pretty pointless trying to sell people rabbit rights when there's no basic understanding of our closest relatives and the fact that their experience might be almost indistnguishable from our own.

I agree with your respect for life but at the same time I'm more of a pragmatist and less of a dreamer:tongue: The boundaries may be fuzzy but they are boundaries nonetheless.

 

Well i hate to swallow that but ive had to over the years, and the fact is youre right. When people cant tell the difference between a dolphin and a fish we DO have a long way to go

Ive learnt to slow down. I dont try and "sell rabbit rights" to the masses anymore, only those who seem particularly alert or in tune or just willing to listen to new ideas, even if they dont buy it (i bet you feel all special now ) Anyway youre right and we probably need to take it in stages. I just though id share my general viewpoint, just incase

I think its important to hold onto the belief though, and live that life for myself, even if people dont want to see right now

As for evidence i think people are a lot more backward with this than they believe, and slicing kittens open whilst keeping them in crates really isnt going to enlighten, but i guess you could have guessed my feelings on that one. Of course other research into mammals is very useful indeed, but again, id prefer to refrain from killing, rather than slaughter anything that moves and ask questions later. And even putting all that aside an assuming other creatures are completely stupid, its about necessity for me personally. I dont NEED to kill a cow. And even if i did (and again i respect some feel they do) i wouldnt agree with torturing it, as is seen so much these days

I probably AM a dreamer or idealist. Ive been called those things enough. But im happy here, dreaming away I am gradually grasping the more practical sides of things though, like the fact people dont want to hear about rabbits when theyre willing to harm eachother, other apes, dolphins...

 

i don't really think that any animal is very different from us. if it's alive, it feels something. but that doesn't relally make much difference to me. i'm food, too.

 

Demonstrating a nuanced awareness of natural history there KC...:tongue:

It doesn't make any sense to suggest that a nematode worm, with less than 1000 total cells "feels" anything at all and to ignore the difference in suffering between such an animal and a human being capable of intense suffering and of writing a play like Hamlet about vastly complex states of mental anguish is a little silly. There's a long graduated continuum of organisms in between those two extremes all capable of different amounts of "feeling", with diferent levels of awareness and capable to varying degrees of "suffering".

Because the boundaries are not clearly defined doesn't mean there are no boundaries and we shouldn't throw our brains out of the window when we approach such a complicated issue...

 

I think it's sad that people think that just becuase things are less intelligent, there lives value seems to dramatically decrease. So I guess when you rip hooks out of fishes mouths, and let them flop around on the deck or in your hands until it suffocates, doesn't really matter becuase it's just a fish and it can't feel it?
I'll never believe that for a minute.
I think as long as you're killing the animal in a respectful and "humane" way, then they aren't doing anything wrong.

 

Is that true of killing humans too? If not why not?