Boycott Citgo Oil and Jugo Chavez

Hmmm...so there IS an acceptable excuse for murder and brutality after all.

I guess you learn something every day.


Skip. When is the last time you gave Bush some leeway, or made any attempt to justify something HE did?


Ugh, the futility of debating politics!

 

wait, so you're saying that the venezuelans dont deserve basic freedoms and democracy because their dictator has good intentions? thats like saying hitler or stalin were good because they good things for their respective countries. granted those two were infinitely worse but its the same line of thinking, and its a dangerous one. its the same line of thinking that brought those two into power and let them do as they wished, its that line of thinking that made every flag waving redneck think security is more important than freedom.

europe is pretty socialist, do those countries have dictators or lack freedom of speech? (yeah they jail holocaust deniers but that's not related to criticism of the govt and is off topic)

could you tell me WHY it's necessary to stifle ALL dissent? demanding equal time for chavez's supporters is one thing, but the government there has the ability to stop all disagreeing voices whatsoever. have they? i dont know since i dont live in venezuela, but no government should have the power to stop disagreeing voices. i dont care if he cures AIDS and makes every citizen a millionare, no government should be above reproach. EVER.

if socialism means giving up my right to disagree and my right to elected government, then i'd rather live in a capitalist republic. because in a country like this you can disagree all you want without having to worry about being jailed. when theres corruption or misdeeds, there's always a voice to call them on it. one prolitarian is weak on his own but together they can accomplish much. just think about how much reform came about from the heroic actions of unions and other activists. capitalism may be a system built on greed, but that greed can be checked by regulation and cooperation by the people. whatever you disagree with, you're free to oppose it.

the road to hell is paved with good intentions- american proverb

 

Last time I checked, ALL dissent was NOT stifled in Venezuela. I think Hugo being a "dictator" is simply a matter of perspective. Also, last time I checked, he was trying to set things up where he would HAVE ENOUGH TIME to actually make the changes he is aiming for. They STILL have ways to get a leader out of power who they don't like, within the framework of their laws. It's just set up differently than in the US. If our government was set up like theirs is, we maybe could have gotten rid of Bush long ago.

Sorry if this is disagreeable to some of you, but I'm not taking my info just from US based or elite or mainstream based news sources. I have researched Venezuela EXTENSIVELY as a possible future HOME. And I am a political type person, so I spent a good deal of time looking at the politics of Venezuela and what Chavez seems to be trying to do, and I think it is a very interesting experiment. I also think that there are a lot of people who are afraid of what he is doing, simply because it doesn't fit in the "box" they are used to. I really think Hugo is trying to work "outside the box" and altho I give him much credit for this, it seems to scare many people. And of course, when people are afraid, they say very nasty things about that which they are afraid of. Come on folks, he MUST have SOMETHING on the ball. He recognizes evil when he sees it, he is not afraid of what dissenters think, he's not afraid of what the rich and powerful say. He's not afraid to stand up for what he believes in. He's not threatening anyone. He's willing to spread his wealth around. He wants his country to be independent of the U.S. Now THAT is good practice!!!

 

I think the core issue here to some people is that oil companies are bad, and if the leader of an oil producing country nationalizes EVERYTHING he must be bad too.

That's kind of like that asshat who wants to outlaw all internal combustion engine automobiles (no, not Al Gore, the one who picked a fight with earthmother). Go ahead and refuse to move out of population, refuse to ride in cars, and when some crackhead shoots you in the neck for the two dollars in your shoe, refuse to ride in an ambulance.

It's extremism on both sides that fuels this stupid war the US is mixed up in. Don't give in to it.

 

When people are so biased that they can't accept facts, it turns from a debate into a pointless argument.

Enjoy your version of reality.

 

So you aren't a REAL activist then? You give up too easily. That will surely effect a lot of change...

 

I tend to boycott places like Mobil in favor of Citgo. I'd rather support Chavez and Venezuela by buying their oil than support the greedy American oil companies, who are in bed with Bush and Cheney. Regardless of all the bullshit they feed us about terrorism and "spreading democracy", the American oil companies are responsible for this senseless war in Iraq, they're a bigger threat to democracy than Chavez is.

 

are you fucking blind? the man IS a dictator. he stole the election and is trying to eliminate term limits. this makes him a de facto dictator. and i even said that idk if he stifles all dissent, since i havent lived there myself. but i did also say that NO GOVERNMENT SHOULD HAVE THAT POWER, EVER! the simple fact that his government has that ability is going too far, in my opinion. why should those facts be ignored just because he has done positive things?

heres a fun fact: "Human Rights Watch expressed concern in a personal letter to Chávez over the safety of human rights defenders in Venezuela. Human rights organization Amnesty International has catalogued a number of human rights violations under Chávez's administration. As of December 2004, Amnesty International had documented at least 14 deaths and at least 200 wounded during confrontations between anti-Chávez demonstrators and National Guard, police, and other security personnel in February and March 2004."
but they're just elite, pro-US liars now arent they?
look, what im trying to tell everyone, and what you all are ignoring is the fact that he isint all good. he is helping the people of his country but is at the same time oppressing them.

*sigh* i know all my arguements are gonna fall on deaf ears, and ill just get the same tired "hes good cause he is a socialist, all the bad stuff about him is exaggerated and made up" rhetoric. sometimes i dunno why i bother.

 

Your time would be better spent fighting your own oppressive government. I hear you, I just see Chavez doing what needs to be done to rid his country of foreign interest and the stranglehold of big business.

OK, let's put the shoe on the other foot. Tomorrow, you're appointed King of America. What are you going to do for me?

 

Weird how someone who has never been there, never lived there, and doesn't know anyone who lives there, can be so sure they know so much. But it's common for people to fear what they don't understand. It would seem that no matter HOW long a president can be in office there, they can STILL be tossed out at any time. THAT is how their government is SUPPOSED to work. I really just don't see the big problem. I think I understand what he is trying to do. I imagine it would be EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to completely change a government without stepping on SOME toes, no matter how positive your future vision seems to be. Yea, what WOULD you do if suddenly made ruler of the US? Would you simply try to work within the existing system which has failed so abysmally all these years, or would you make some big changes? Imagine, the skys the limit and the majority are behind you...

 

*is stunned by the question* hmmmmm, if i were king. *thinks back to the man show for inspiration* wellll............
when i am king, the word team will be spelled teim
when i am king, the US will only involve itself in a country if asked, and if said country has similar ideals
when i am king, marijuana and shrooms will be legal and trafficking in cocaine, heroin or meth will carry a death sentence
when i am king, corporate welfare will end and some of the money will be put toward the construction of a giant statue of me, for i am the shit.(as is wishbone)
when i am king, nasa's only goals will be the invention of the lightsaber and colonizing mars.
when i am king, the NFL will become the NGL (national gladiatorial league) because gladiators are fucking awesome. furthermore, all executions will be carried out in the arena; the condemned will fight to the death.
when i am king, all immigration will halt. i dont care from where. i just dont want the US to end up like western europe, china or japan. (urban sprawl is made of fail)
when i am king, all ties to the "people's" republic of china will be severed. i mean have you seen that vid of the animal being skinned alive? those people are sick fuckers!
when i am king, the anheuser busch corporation will be forced to make their products have flavor.
/off topic

but yeah, i see where you're coming from zoombie. and i agree that we should concentrate on our own problems. i was just trying to make the point that an asshole is an asshole is an asshole

 

*sigh* i give up. it doesn't matter how many facts i site, you'll still claim they're wrong. IF THEY TRY TO THROW HIM OUT OF OFFICE, HE'LL STEAL THE ELECTION, AGAIN! if rudy or hilary start taking your freedom in the name of their vision for the future, i'll lol. and yes, i would work within the system because i believe in the rule of law and the constitution and not my own awesomeness(despite what you might think from my jestful previous post)

 

The current mentality of most liberals is to demonize those with conservative values...and vindicate everyone else (including communist dictators and radical Islamic militias).

 

Chavez has reason to distrust American foreign policy. The US supported the El Salvadorian government when the army massacred El Mozote during the Reagan era. The US doesn't have a good track record in the Central American nations, so why should Chavez trust GW?

Peace and love

 

On this we can agree. I was simply trying to make the point that radical changes require radical thought, radical action and not everyone in the local gentry is going to agree with those actions. Chavez will be demonized by some no matter what good he accomplishes for his country just as Kennedy was, Roosevelt was, etc etc etc. If there are in fact human rights violations going on and they are being decried, I'd bet my fur that it was the former Venezuelan corporate elite and their cronies being persecuted. As they should be. They oppressed a nation. Read Marx. This is how change happens.

Has anyone told you today that you're quite irritatingly defensive? I'm positive you had to have heard it before, but has anyone said it today?

I'm not a liberal. That term is very insulting. I'm a Socialist. Get it right.

 

I checked your links and none of them mentioned anything negative about Chavez and his gov't. Also, Amnesty International has received a lot of critisicm for being biased, even from the US according to your source.

Here is an article I found that expresses support for Chavez.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050411/parenti

As I have said in a past post, why should Chavez support the US when it tries to control the politics of the world? Look at the Iran-Contra affair. If anything, US policies are proving that democracy, when controlled by the elite, do nothing but further advance the upper classes in wealth and power. In 2005, the US was ranked 12th in standard of living by the UN. According to a 2006 study of quality of living in cities, the top US city was Honolulu at 27th.

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/04-10-2006/0004336870&EDATE

Why is this country spending $548 billion on defense in 2007 when spending for education is $89.9 billion? The Iraq and Afghan wars are not even included in the defense budget! That alone is over $400 billion!

BTW, individual taxation brings in $1.1 trillion while corporate taxes only amount to $260.6 billion. My Sociology class considers the US as a corporate welfare state. Remember that when people criticize socialism and welfare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget,_2007

Peace and love

 

I think the technical term for this is "Dude! You got pwned!"

 

YES! Chavez is demonised because he refuses to kiss Bush's ass like everyone else on the planet, and good for him for that!