Thanks for the sacrifice.

The idea that the Judeo-Christian God a Devine being that “if you believe in the Bible" is omnipotent all merciful, Sent his son down to earth to be crucified to save us from sin. The purpose of the life of Jesus, his only son was to be a bloody sacrifice his whole purpose of life was to be tortured and murdered if you believe that the crucifixion was part of Gods "divine plan".

Christians please tell me why God did not forgive us of our sins without letting someone die. Am I supposed to feel a sense of gratefulness that God tortured someone for me, when he could have just as easily done it without bloodshed?

 

I've always wondered that, too. Especially if he's all-powerful and all-loving.

 

*i'm not 'Christian'

The idea of blood sacrifices is a very old one, the ancient Hebrews used to sacrifice many animals for different purposes but mostly as a way of moral cleaning for the person who makes the sacrifice.

The sacrifice of Jesus was actually intended to be the final sacrifice because his blood is eternal and therefore is eternally cleansing. This means that now anyone, through Jesus, can be cleaned of sin without having to make a sacrifice for each mistake. I think the details of the ancient sacrifices can be found in 'Leviticus' of the Old Testament.

 

There are lots of theories. The Christus Victor theory of Gustav Aulen sees the crucifixion of Jesus as demonstrating the victory of spirit over flesh, Christ over death by one of the most hideous means invented by human governments. This instrument of Roman power and torture proved impotent against a Galilean carpenter. Rome crumbled, Pontius Pilate died in obscurity, Tiberius was smothered in his bed, and Jesus (or the memoryof him) is still going strong. Another theory, by Faustus Socinus, is the Martyr theory, that the martyrdom of Jesus stirred human consciences and gained sympathy for his teachings and example (as the persecution of Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and their followers gained sympathy for their causes). Non-violent martyrdom was one of the most effective weapons of the early Christians, many of whom were eager to follow the example of their Lord and Savior. Then there is the Vicarious Justice or Atonement theory, developed by St. Paul and others, viewing Jeusus as sacrificial lamb. According to Grotius, Jesus crucifixion demonstrated God's hatred of sin, but also offered humanity a means of clemency by accepting the sacrifice of one man, God's son, in place of all the other sinners. Calvin's view is similar. Justice demands that sin be punished, but God in His mercy, allows one perfect human, his Son, to give himself freely for this purpose. Scoff as you will, the sacrifice/atonement idea engenders a lot of gratitude on the part of Christians who feel that they've been given a new lease on life.

You asked. I think it's unfortunate that for some Christians the Atonement view of Jesus has taken away from the significance of his moral teachings and example. I think his death and sacrifice were less important than his life, teachings, and example.

 

The bible is full of accounts of God's interaction with us before Jesus, yet there is no record in the bible of any interaction after Jesus. God is done messing around with us. He sees us as a lost cause and has created another civilization on another planet to play with.

 

The idea that Jesus died on the cross to save us from sin is divine only in the sense that everything God created is divine in essence. Jesus dies on the cross in order that His message would reach the masses and touch people's hearts for centuries to come. Same reason why people love all the dead musicians, when you die people are interested in what you did while alive, especially if you were a growing interest that got cut short due to unwelcome circumstances. The fact that Jesus forgave his crucifiers teaches a hard lesson that hits home in the minds of those who feel empathy towards humanity and is, in my opinion, one of the best ways to appeal to a people who never think of anyone but themselves. Take it for what you will rebel, I know your a bright kid. But Jesus dying on the cross is just how it had to happen, and it does not mean that God punished him with pain personally, it means that when Love is put to the hardest test a human being can possibly go through (being murdered), Love still comes out on top and proves itself to be the only reality.

 

Um, what about when Paul saw the sky open and had Heaven revealed to Him and heard the voice of God thunder across the desert, and he and his companions fell to the ground in reverence and awe?
The voice of God is AUM and it is through divine perception that it is communed with. From the buzz of atoms to the roar of the ocean, all sound has Aum as it's source to thank. The Sound is always present, it is manipulated when words are spoken or noise generated from vibration or pre existing matter and energy. And it is this Cosmic Consciousness that Paul and many other's throughout the ages have attained, a sort of consciousness evolution, if you will. Similar to how mankind has evolved as a near whole into seeing color, sense of fragrance, music appreciation, and morality.

 

The writings about Jesus were told by the apostles. I meant after they were gone, there's nothing else in the bible right?

Wow.... wow.... My mouth was just hanging open when I read this. Things like this make me realize that despite humanity's advances we still have a long way to go. You don't have any idea how sounds are made? I try not to be too harsh on here, but damn!

 

Um, did you not say after Jesus was gone? Of course after the disciples were gone there is no more God interacting with His creation written about in the Bible, the disciples wrote the book, so obviously it comes to an end lol.

Go ahead, be as harsh as you like Stiffy. It's apparent that what I just said has not been comprehended by you in the least, as it is also obvious that your perception of God interacting with His creation is through a sky daddy talking to people via burning bushes and the like. What I am talking about is Om communion which comes about through deep meditation. This is not a matter of how sound is produced on the physical plane, it is a matter of how the macrocosmic form came into existance through emanation of Om.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
By the way bro I am not a Christian, but the similarities between all of the worlds main religions are numerous if one knows how to read between the lines.

 

There is also the theory, sometimes attributed to Brian of Nazareth (Monty Python): "Always look on the Bright side of life." When life gives you lemons, make lemonade! When they nail you to the cross, make it into the most meaningful experience the world has ever known. It works!

 

Yea me too. I've always thought even as a little kid that the whole ritual of drinking symbolic Jesus blood and eating symbolic Jesus body was quite bizarre and it made me feel like I was in a cult that just so happened to include a massive percent of the world.
It's amazing how nobody even understood the metaphor of Jesus' words when He said that. But just like the rest of His message it went over everyones head, and even the simple message like do unto others as you would have done unto you, and love thy neighbour, and forgive those who trespass against us, which are easy enough for a 5 year old to comprehend, can barely even be followed and complied with. -

 

There's some evidence that the earliest Christians used bread and fish as their eucharistic meal.

 

Care to explain the metaphor then if it is so obvious?

 

What a bizzare statement.

 

A young man left behind all the familiar comforts of home. He walked from one town to another throughout his native land doing good for people and gathering faithful friends as he went his way. He spoke to everyone who would listen, and even some who wouldn’t, about the way one may live a good, meaningful life. He quoted the traditional wisdom of the wise men and women who came before him and said, simply, to love all that is divine, to love one another, to know and speak and live truthfully, to be conscious and observant of the spiritual reality of one's life, and to live one's life creatively instead of destructively.

His reward for his efforts, for his gifts to humanity, was that those who lived in fear of losing their influence, their wealth, their identity gave him all of their ignorance, their intolerance, their anger, their fear, their hatred, and, finally, their violence. He accepted what they gave him but he knew better than to use these things himself, not even to save his own life. Instead, as he suffered a torturous, certain death, he forgave them. He asked only for love, truth, consciousness, creativity, mercy and an ineffable, mysterious, universal, unifying transcendence to find a way into their lives, to transform the way people behaved toward one another.



Sooner or later, one has to wonder. What kind of human being is this?



All good responses to this question are, in fact, expressions of our deepest, most inspired ideals about what humanity may be. The question itself invites a profound, supra-rational inspiration that transforms lives for the better. Whoever this man most truly is, his story inspires a third of the people in the world to celebrate his birthday, every year, at Christmas.

 

God could'nt have saved us from our sins without a sacrifice? That means he is'nt all-powerful.

 

That's one possibility. Or "He moves in mysterious ways". That's another.

 

growing up in a farm-community church , somehow i got the idea that jesus loved the goats so much . he liked milk alot , but wouldn't eat meat , and had no respect for the animal sacrifice thing .


at the age of six i had an idea to try out the sacrifice method of peace . it was winter , and on the school playground was a war . two battlements had been constructed of snow and the fighting fierce . me ? i was tired of war and anyway we 1st graders were feeling like losers agin the 2nd grade . so boldly i ran to center to stand alone and just stood there arms wide and praying to the clouds and took every snowball til the bell rang . then i could believe i was dead . that was the end of war forever . i never got any credit nor even disdain , and i didn't give rising from the dead any particular notice .

 

Well if this all merciful gods mysterious ways couldnt have been done without torturing someone then I dont want anything to do with him.

 

I think it was the Romans who did the torturing. I gather your beef with God the Father is that He let it happen, when being omnipotent He could have stopped it, but didn't because it was somehow necessary for our salvation. I don't get overly analytical about metaphors. It's like some of my friends who can't enjoy a movie because of some flaw in the plot line. I just saw "I Am Legend " and enjoyed it, but my girlfriend couldn't get past the dog. Why couldn't Will Smith quarantine the dog until he came up with a cure for zombies? Cheez, I don't know. The short answer is, because it would be really dumb dramatically.

"Jesus died for our sins. God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son." But wait a minute, He let His son be tortured. What kind of Dad is that? And why was it necessary for our salvation? Yada yada yada. Mel Gibson would understand. If Jesus is literally God's progeny, and God is the Sky Daddy, it may sound like abusive parenting, but if God is less anthropomorphic and Jesus shares in the divine energy, maybe it makes sense somehow. I've always been more interested in Jesus' teachings and example than in his death. But in a couple of earlier posts, I gave several possible reasons for the "sacrifice", some or all of which could work well enough for me. (Admittedly, I'm not all that demanding). If they don't work for you, don't mess with it, but please don't spoil the movie for the rest of us.