Boycott Cars man.

So it was built and is maintained and powered without doing any significant
harm to the environment? Without being subsidized by exploited labor
around the world?

Wrong.

Convenience is a real problem. Always, it is convenient only to a priveleged elite.
Not to every species or population of organism (including people) impacted by
or involved in it,

Great. That's like saying: "I killed them all with a small caliber rifle, so it's okay."

Those "oil whores", meaning the people that profit from investing in them,
are most of the retirees in America and Europe whose pension/retirement
funds own most of the their stock/bonds.

And everyone in America and Europe with an insurance policy: Insurance
companies hold massive amounts of stocks in oil companies and other
industries involved in the car lifestyle.

And just about every charitable and non-profit organization. Certainly
all of the major ones that receive grants from charitable foundations,
all of which are invested to the hilt in the petroleum and other
car-related industries. Like the pension and retirement and insurance funds.

You want to blame the problem on some priveleged elite, and you
are right. The only thing you are not facing is that YOU are a member
of that priveleged elite, which is known as the middle class. Which
holds the vast bulk of the world's wealth.

Littlefoot

"We have met the enemy, and they is us." -Pogo

 

The roads are already there, so the damage has been done. We can expend further resources tearing them up, or we can change the way we use them. I'm not talking about a radical change here, though the long term change will seem drastic when we look back at it in fifty years. It'll be more catastrophic if we don't slow down and make some compromises in the near future. It wouldn't take much to reduce the amount of fuel we consume by a sizable proportion if the government would take action to encourage it. Actually they have to some extent. I read something recently to the effect that automobile manufacturers will be required to significantly increase the average fuel efficiency in the next ten of fifteen years. I don't know the exact numbers, but I think the average car would get 35 mpg, and that's double what they get now, which is still pretty lame. The bummer is there's no vision in place that I know about to improve public transportation in this country.

Our collective mindset needs to change. I still see a lot of new SUV's on the roads, so the general public is either uninformed or they don't care (I suspect it's both). And the US auto makers are continuing to churn out behemoths, yet somehow they must be selling 'em 'cause they continue to make them.

I drive a car that gets over 40 mpg, and it's not a hybrid (you know where I stand on hybrids--I agree that may just be displacing the problem for the reasons you mention).

And don't get me wrong, I do face the fact that I'm part of the problem, being a member of the "privileged elite" middle class you speak of, the quality of life I enjoy as an average American being based on the exploitation of the rest of the world. So what do I do, go out in the back yard and put a bullet in my head for being such a hypocrite? Or I suppose I could cut off ties with the rest of the world, including my family, relinquish all I own, and live somewhere off the grid in a cave or something as you appear to be doing. Then there's option three, which is to make sacrifices to conserve fuel, while bouncing ideas off y'all for potential solutions. One thing I'm not gonna do is give up hope.

 

Another idea might be to have sort of a vehicle cooperative, in which we rely on a network of buses and trains to get us to garages at various centers when we need one. The vehicles don't belong to anyone, but they are there for anyone's use who possesses a license, and you pay in proportion to the size of what you're using, and how far you drive.

'course that would go against our general trend toward privatization...

 

Roads are incredibly destructive. Every 2.1 miles of two lane road sterilizes
about an acre of land. And they cut ecosystems into pieces at the critical
surface water/soil layer (erroneously called "edge effect" by the ecologists)

This is damage that can be undone easily. It can be healed.

Roads take an enormous amount of maintenance. We don't have to do anything
but let the Earth take care of them. Which she would do in short order.

 

I'll buy that.

If someone did, they'd probably disappear. Some powerful people make their livelihoods off energy. A friend of mine knew someone who bought a car that got twice the mileage it was rated for. The manufacturer realized they had made a mistake by shipping the person the wrong car, so they tried to get it back. Evidently it was a prototype that was too efficient.

How do you propose we do this?

What do you consider to be the "best" of civilization?

Absolutely!

So you're a minimalist, that's a good thing. Just as I might benefit from knowing more of the details of how you live so I might do the same, you might wanna reserve judgement on how I live until you know the details.

And do you really think the environmental movement is so futile? I'd hate see what things would be like without it.

Good, we're getting somewhere. So let's talk about this "real change" you speak of. I'm pretty sure I know where this is going. Get rid of all our cars, and anything that uses energy, let the roads deteriorate and fall apart, give up currency in exchange for a barter system, and grow our own food, right? I respect your ideas, but I'm also a realist. Unless you can convince others to do the same, it won't happen. You can be bitter and denounce the system and average white american imperialists like me, or you can make personal sacrifices, lead by example, and educate others on how they can do the same. I guess what I'm getting at is this cold turkey all or nothing notion is a tough sell, but a step by step plan for weaning ourselves off energy could work if enough people know about it and are willing to comply. Our government could also step up and impose such a plan, but they won't.

 

Top of the morning, MY,

 

yes. Top of the morning to you too, thanks for the food for thought.

 

Here's some spice to make it taste a lot better:

You,and everyone else here and in the world are beloved children of
God. All existence is blessed and all apparent evil is only ignorance.
We are learning and it is okay to be learning and we will get
it right. We have forever.

Littlefoot

 

my brother is 27 and doesnt hav a lisence and doesnt intend to get one because he hates cars. he rides his bike everywhere, and it is a great way to stay fit while helping the environment. i tried to hold off buying a car and caught the train to work everyday but after a year i couldnt catch the train to where i was working so had to buy a car and it was too far to ride. if everyone worked close to home within there own small communities then we could do away with cars all together. ive been on protest bike rides here in melbourne they call them "critical mass" and hundreds of people ride along the major highways and thru the city blocking the roads stoping traffic. it was a experience.

 

Bicylces are good. But walking is better. And the two don't mix at all. Nothing
spoils a nice walk like having bicycles speeding by a short distance away.

Walking is much more Earth-friendly because it doesn't require pretty complex
machines to be built from steel (or more destructive materials). I have heard
of bamboo-frame bicycles, but there are still all those other components. And
the rubber/synthetic rubber for tires and airpumps and nasty chemicals to patch
tires....An awful lot mining and refining and energy and manufacturing is involved.

And walkers do not require roads. A simple path will do.

The fact is that bicycles are a real drag to use for transportation on anything
but a smooth and solid surface. A road. And if there are any steep hills at all.
Plus, someone using a bike for serious transportation is usually going to be
carrying cargo of some kind. That really takes a lot of the fun out of it.
Especially on paths or hills.

But you are missing something really, really important: The car lifestyle
employ scores of millions of people, and provides retirements for tens of
millions of others. The numerous industries involved also provide billions
in charitable donations and investments in them by charitable foundations.
And pay billions in taxes to various communities. It also provides for
tens of millions of insurance policies of all kinds because the insurance
companies are heavily invested in all of the industries that make cars
possible.

Get rid of cars and you will have a major depression on your hands that
will make America's Great Depression look like a walk in the park.

LIttlefoot

 

haha, I've actually been walking a lot lately instead of biking! While the speed is fun, and my bike is good for longer distances, I get major wind chill on my bike. Plus, its such a drag finding places to put my bike.

 

OK, I'm done chewing, though I'll be digesting for a while, and with luck the rest won't be crap.

You're right, I need to stop taking shots at the government, when it's my life style that's to blame. And here I've always been an advocate of taking responsibility for my actions, so I guess I need to re-think that one. I still think the resources can be re-distributed in a far more constructive way, but the fact that they're not is a result of the resources being there to begin with, and, well, it's human nature to hoard what's there, especially when it's there in excess.

I take it you're not white are you?

That's funny, in a sad sorta way. It's ironic that we need a beurocracy to provide us with the illusion that our environment is being protected against the boogeymen, when we created the boogeymen to begin with.

I thought you said you didn't live in a cave. I am curious how you live though. I envision timber structures, tents (or tee pees), with a forge, and a small farm. You "squat" on national forest land (though it can hardly be considered squatting if you're taking care of it). You keep a low enough profile so as to avoid being spotted by the planes, and every so often you move to a different area to avoid being detected. How do you get internet access? Either you have a dish of some sort, or you hoof it into town to some coffee shop.

I'd like to hear more about how you do it, suggestions on where to get more info. I never learned how to forge steel, but I can swing an axe.

Then there's the issue we discussed earlier about what to do with kids and family, that's a tough one.

Not that I'm gonna pack it in, get rid of my stuff, and hoof it into the mountains tomorrow, but it sure would be useful to know where to start.

Foregive me, but I'm still not sure what you mean. Sometimes you gotta spell it out, speak slowly, and use small words.

I'll take a crack at it, though. We are part of the earth, as the earth is part of us, and by taking care of the earth, we are taking care of ourselves.

Thanks for the spice, I'm glad you're not bitter.

What an epiphany. It's not every day I get the opportunity to question who I am or what I stand for. For that I'm grateful.

 

Im sorry but there will neve be enough people willing to get rid of their cars. And sadly, I am one of them. Its just way more conveinient. People do care about global warming but some dont care enoguh and their philosiphy is that by the time the Earth will really feel the effects we will be dead. Its a sad world we live in, but hte dependentcy on cars is crazy.

 

I don't think it's possible... er.... I know it is NOT possible to do without a car in most of the US. While people who live in Seattle, NYC, LA, Chicago, and other major areas have the ability to us mass transit, it isn't possible in most other areas.

Has anyone tried to use mass transit in areas like Jacksonville, FL? Some areas have mass transit, but it tends to be highly unreliable and a major pain in the arse.

Totally boycotting cars (or other fossil fuel vehicles) is unrealistic. That would literally mean riding a bicycle or walking everywhere.

Not going to happen... even with the most tree hugging hippies. Electric cars are out of the price range of most people and completely out of the question for your typical hipster.

If $4 a gallon for gas and diesel doesn't slow down the sale and use of cars, I doubt anything will.

Cars are not the only problem. Boycott the use of electricity. That too is responsible for pollution. There are many sources of pollution that are far more worse than vehicles.

 

Its intersting that people always wish to look at a problem from the point of "before it was a problem" Its easy to fix something knowing what will happen before it happens. We do not have that option now, we need to look at a solution to what has already been done and work with what has been done to fix it.

I love the King County guy, I am sure he flushes his toilet right into the Puget Sound like the rest, gets his power from the damns that have messed up the rivers, uses the roads and lives in a home that has created the flooding and mud slide issues and still uses that toilet paper to pamper the rear end. King County laws stop too much green life.

Cars are needed currently since living close to your job is not an option due to costs of living, real estate ect. Its too late for that so looking at car pools, mass transit, fines to companies that employ large numbers to make transit for employees through perhaps company owned vans, busses ect.

 

There hasn't been anything done to fix it. And there isn't anything planned by
the people who are suppsedly fixing it that will fix anything.

Nope. Goes in my gardens like all of my organic waste.

You could try asking. That way you wouldn't like someone with an agenda
who has no interest in truth.

True. But I use very, very little of it.

I have no car, but I sometimes use the roads.

You seem to be interested only in discrediting me. And all you are
accomplishing is making yourself look like a jerk with an agenda.

You really are a jerk. I think you must need toilet paper for
your mouth.

[/QUOTE]

I've deleted the rest of your post. Don't expect me to read another
one.

I guess you don't like what I have to say.

Isn't that just too bad?

Littlefoot

 

I've deleted the rest of your post. Don't expect me to read another
one.

I guess you don't like what I have to say.

Isn't that just too bad?

Littlefoot[/QUOTE]The only agenda I have is the abiltiy for the current situation that is in most parts of the world to all of a sudden stop using cars is likely not going to happen as it would be impossible with out loss of lives. Too much has been structured around cars so good luck with that idea. The need to press other modes is greatly needed but carpools and ect have been there for a long time and yet its hardly ever used sadly.

It does not bother me a bit if no one reads my post and understand I am not a jerk, just an asshole!

 

Hey MY.

(Quotes from me that MY is responding to are in bold.)

Not human nature. What we've been taught human nature is. Big difference.

Lily white. Pure WASP from smalltown America. Eagle Scout...College, the
whole shebang.

Sure the hell is! But you have to do something like that if you
want to pretend that you can preserve the planet while being a
part of a super-materialistic culture that has to grow forever.

I am not talking how I am living at present. And the
people I am referring to don't live in caves. They live in
Earth-sheltered buildings. Not quite the same thing.

The people I am referring to live in tiny villages of about
40 people. They have lodges for non-traditional families and
workshops and community centers with gyms. The villages are
semi-permanent. They seldom move. They mostly live off small
gardens scattered around the villages that are arranged to look
like natural plant communities.

You could walk right through one and not see it. They always have
people patrolling the area to watch out for people from this
civilization. Outside, they always wear full camouflage. Indoors,
light, colorful robes are the norm.

These are very comfortable places to live: Abundant and excellent
fresh foods, hot running water, artificial light, and steel tools
and writing and artististic supplies, classes, parties, concerts
and dances and storytelling. Studying non-brutal 'de-martial'
arts is a big thing.

They obviously don't have any Internet access. They have
absolutely nothing material from this civilization.

Actually, though that is quite nice, I was referring to the
practical side of things: We need shoes, we don't need cars.
We need good steel handsaws, we don't need chainsaws...

Jeesh. Now I am blushing. Thank YOU, Mellow Yellow.

Indeed.


Littlefoot

 

They have
absolutely nothing material from this civilization.

were do they get

hot running water, artificial light, and steel tools
and writing and artististic supplies, classes, parties, concerts ?

 

Where did the Romans get hot running water and artificial light and
writing and artistic supplies? Or the Chinese, a thousand years before them?

Where did the Armenians get good tool steel 1500 years before Christ?

They didn't have the option of going to Sears or Kmart, did they?

As for concerts, well, that takes musical instruments, and there have
been tens of thousands of them created by different cultures over
the millennia.

Get on the Web and do some searching. This isn't the place for a
technical manual.

But I'll give you a couple of more clues: Woodgas and methane (bio-gas)
can be used directly for illumination.

Steel musical instrument strings are made from wire, which is made
using wire dies, a very simple process.

Glass for lamp chimneys can be made from quartz sand or quartz or
quartzite (these are, I believe, the most common minerals on the
planet) and wood ashes.

Littlefoot

"The greatest fine art of the future will be the making of a
comfortable living from a small piece of land."

-- Abraham Lincoln