Ok so..please humour me with a few answers

I posted this in a moonjava thread with no response..so thought/hoped taking it out all on its own may bring some response (fingers crossed)the balck text is added text so as to try and make it more understandable...maybe this should be in random thoughts anyway here goes.

Personaly i seek peace with a gun in my hand..because you need it sometimes ..sometimes you can't stop and chat or debate the issues because other people don't realy want too listen..if that makes any sense.

...do you think that the people that denounce Bush are merely playing into the terrorists hands..?? i do .

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09-13-2004, 01:09 PM #35 MagicMedicine vbmenu_register("postmenu_374981", true); ​

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nice one matthew. did you read my above post at all?

and for the record, us attacking iraq really didnt do SHIT for the war on terror. What? We havnt been attacked since 9/11? People, wake up. We've never been hit BEFORE 9/11 either.

You must be Bush's brother. "peace with a gun". nice. let's attack a country thinking they have "weapons of mass destruction" and then not find any. That's what happens when you base a war on your "peace with a gun". Let's start war with countries we THINK have things we dont like.

You can have your opinion, but don't try and tell me that I'm playing into terrorists hands. End the war already, it's not going anywhere.
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09-13-2004, 04:32 PM #36 matthew vbmenu_register("postmenu_375438", true); ​

Member

I am not picking on anyone in particular when i say playing into terrorists hands..I am just saying that the militia that is killing all the troops and civillians...

what do these malitia want ?
what are they doing to get their wish
why are innocent people being beheaded or their captives being given back for ransom.
why do they hate america so much ... this question i think 'plays into their hands' because they are using all the stuff that anti war people are using as a reason to get the troops out or justify killing them (the malitia , not the anti war people i hasten to add)...and people that just despise any kind of 'war' , you would always seek a peaceful way.are you debating with people that don't consider war wrong ... why are you doing that you will always not agree...

Ok you take the troops out ...then what ???

or don't send them in the first place i guess you may say ... bit late for that one , but what should have been done instead ??? again you may say that war is not the answer so you wish for a peaceful way to resolve any situation..that would be nice if the 'other side' co-operated.

The rest of the world is part of this as well and i see nothing about why other leaders are so tragicaly misguided and are money hungry cold hearted etc etc etc ... If mr Bush was just after money , he already has a shed load of it , and this would be the most dumbest way too get more ... he can't be that dumb because it would require brains to orchestrate this .. plus its realy missing every other nation out ...and putting them into supporting roles , i guess 'we' just mess this whole conspiracy up i guess.

Sorry am making wild acusations ... but i just read stuff here that i find a bit hard to fathom ... not that i don't understand ... just most people want peace but what then . Just stay insular and just help out the poor countries that are easy (relatively speaking)..to solve .

If the main thought is that any war is wrong i can understand that..If you believe that then are you still trying to debate with people that think 'war' is an aceptable way to go..if you are why?? if war is acceptable under the right conditions i can understand that.so you have every right to question the present iraq war.But all i see is that a war is going on its not going well ... because no one seems to be talking with each other...so people are screaming this war is wrong would you still hold the view that this war was wrong if it had been quick and a end was in sight ??.. would it be right if it was going too plan and not so many people were getting killed..??? its a realy easy solution ... you talk with the people that are killing your people .. 'killing your people' is right because the malitia suposedly want to save their people .. even though they seem to be killing their people anyway so seem like hypocrites to me.. and we are doing a bloody good job of it as well.. who wins ??
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I think what i am trying to say is that people that want peace with out any war ..i can understand their rationale...but i still see people debating with people that see this war was justified...its a bit of a waste of your time i think...you say this war is unjustified but then doh you would think that way..

If you see war as an aceptable course of action ...but think this current war was unjustified..i can see why you should be debating.

I am realy sorry if this makes no sense...i try my best (to make sense)..
I am also sorry if this thought has been brought up before..well in my defense , i have not read anything around here that answers any of my questions.

Any thoughts or answers..or just what the fuck..would be apreciated.

 

"You can get farther with a gun and a kind word than a kind word alone." --- Al Capone.

Gotta stick to my heritage sometimes...and with this, I think Capone might have been right.

As for your thoughts on the subject, I don't know. It seemed kindof all over the place, so I'll give you a, "what the fuck?".

 

I think war is justified in some cases. The World Wars were not only justified, but necessary. Especially with Hitler at the wheel.

But a war like this with no plan or exit strategy is suicide. We let our men die everyday for a cause that really has no clear-cut purpose. I would not have had a problem with a quick war where we went in there, did our thing, removed the man from power and left. But 2 years later we're still there. Either claim it for the US of give it back to the people. Now his thing is "for a safer tomorrow". Because that makes sense.

 

THIS war wasn't justifed. Not ALL wars....I think most people feel the same way.

That hasn't been pretty clear?


Andjust about everyone knows Bush isn't some mastermind. He is just a front man, a pawn, if you will.

 

I personally think Bush should be charged with treason for misleading the American people. There were no weapons of mass destruction. There was no CIA intelligence refuting the UN Inspectors' claims that 95% of Iraq's WMD arsenal had been destroyed between '91 and '98, and there was no CIA intelligence that Al Qaeda and Iraq were working together. I don't see how we can justify this war. The only somewhat logical argument I've heard is to destabilize these middle eastern country's that are breeding grounds for militant Islamic's. I fear that is exactly what our plans are... to go take out Iraq, and just when it's getting bad over there (like now) something will happen (like Iran) and we'll attack them.

Something does need to be done about the middle east, but war is not the answer. With the logic we're using right now, I don't see why we don't just nuke every country that remotely appears to be an enemy and wait for the radiation to clear before going in to take over. Maybe that's what the agenda is? Perhaps that's why we're watching our rights slip away; the government needs to have a good firm eye on those of us who would rise up against such an agenda.

 

thanks..above people.. i thought i was being a bit odd.


its realy just if you were too put if you were war ant-war or no-war as a choice..debating it becomes easier . just i have spoken with people that go on for ages and ages and at the end their mentality is no-war. so i guess finding reasons for lies conspiracies works with them..i just wish a bit of honesty at the start was on their mind. so again thanks .

yes i agree..but some people were saying this war was wrong(anti-war) from day one ...so if ...IF anything was found what would they be saying now. I guess if your no-war you should just say so and campaign on that score. I realy wonder how many 'anti-war' people are actualy 'no-war' ???.

Or war but have turned anti-war because of the death and chaos that has occured???. so have realy made hypocrites of themselves in a way .

yeah but i think that war was justified 60 (or after the fact) years later , with hindsight and not millions of deaths being reported on the news...i have not found any anti-war feelings about the world wars i admit but i do still think that it seems the more death and chaos people see the more they feel a particular war was ilegitamate... I think the media at the time did a 'good' job of telling people or maybe people were more inclined to see war as a solution . anti war no-war feeling may have been swept under the carpet of history because of course the world wars especialy the 2 world war created a stable world and a stable europe...but the first that was a bit of a killing field (to put it midly , so was the second). Could a peaceful resolution have been found??? IMHO war is sometimes deemed justified because looking back and looking at today we see the benefit???.

This is what keeps me sane..hoping/wishing that some good does come about. so if you read any of my posts in future and think 'pro bush' 'pro war' blah blah blah...ok yes in the final anaylsis i might be..but its with deep sorrows i assure you.

 

it was all over the place sorry...what i am trying to say is hard to explain ?? sorry. I hope you come back and hopefuly some sense has prevailed..

 

"Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword"
-Jesus-

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&u=/nm/20040910/pl_nm/campaign_kerry_dc_20

 

I think the war against Iraq which we are now stuck in could have/should have been avoided. I heartily denounce Bush's actions in engaging in this war, and the actions his "cronies" (especially Cheny, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, and Rice) for their part in this debacle and I am willing to go so far as to say that some of them are very likely more culpable than Bush. I know that I'm only one of a very large group of people who saw this coming a very long way off (as far back as the day Bush was appointed president), so I'm not surprised at the course of events, but I'm powerless to do anything more than rail against it and vote against Bush and Co. in the coming election.

That being said, I'm starting to think that extricating ourselves from this mess has become nigh on impossible, and I suspect that was the intention all along. Our fumbling involvement in the middle-east has been going on for a long time now, ever since the real evil mastermind behind this, Henry Kissinger, first put together this foreign policy plan. Our support of Israel, despite their own wrong-doings (I'm well aware that they were wronged as well, but two wrongs do not make a right and this whole affair is an object lesson in that), and the greed of our corporate powers-that-be has maneuvered us into an untenable position.

Fundamentalism (which is really a sort of religious fascism) is bad in any form. The strict adherence to absolutes and the resistance to change (which happens regardless of efforts to oppose it - it's a universal law) which are hallmarks of fundamentalist thinking create an atmosphere of ignorance and intolerance. Any religion has the potential to be a good religion, but fundamentalism erodes that potential. Normally, left to their own devices, fundamentalists just pick away at each other, and their infighting keeps them from becoming the strong force for ignorance and extremist actions which we are seeing now.

The fundamentalist religious factions of Islam continue to gain power largely because we are fueling their fires, giving them an enemy that they can unite against. This should never have happened, but now that it has, how do we diffuse it? If we stay, we continue to inflame sentiment against us. If we pull out, the civil war that follows will be blamed on us, as well AND we will have paved the way for an extremist Islamic state (we have probably done that anyway) which will lay waste to human rights and plunge it's people into an era of suffering and violence and "cleansing" which always comes with such governments. The violent bloodshed and rampant hatred we think we are seeing now, is nothing compared to what comes with a civil war. History has shown us that, many times over.

I fear the juggernaut of these events may eventually push our own culture toward a stronger, religious fundamentalism, and soon we will have the same government sponsored promotion of intolerance and ignorance which we are currently decrying in the middle-east. We'll end up ruled by a wealthy, Christian version of the Taliban. When that happens, the medieval Dark Ages are going to be looked back on as "the good old days." Look around. It's happening even now.

My problems with Bush and Co. extend beyond the war. His economic and environmental policies and his scary "God on our side" attitude is kryptonite to our planet and to the ideals this country was founded on. But this thread is about the war, so I'll stick to that. Other than ousting the current administration (which is an obvious and necessary first step), I haven't a clue what to do to remedy the situation in Iraq. We can't stay, and we can't leave, and we can't make it go away by throwing money at it. We've opened a very big can of worms and they are crawling all over the place.

It now looks like the "War on Terror" is going to go the same way the "War on Drugs" did. Our efforts to stop it has only made things worse.

 

You might be right ...but i just see people killing and kidnapping for the hell of it...at first your opinon holds water..but then when i see them kill just because a randsom was not met ...or they got part of what they wanted that just sucks.

Plus the indiscrimate fashion in wich they have been killing just makes me sick..

I can read all the social/political anaylsis till i am blue in the face.. but it does not seem as complicated as that.

Turn this around and look at it not from our point of view and not what we are doing ...i am asking what the point and purpose is of them..this is why i said

I am not realy trying to put blame on anyone ... now that we are in the present situation .. i just want to know why they do what they do..and continue to do what they do.??? blaming us has been done enough i understand that ... just i have not realy heard how they are to blame as well.

I am only using them and us to keep it simpleish. please use all the right words as much as you like..

 

One of the worst things about war is it's dehumanizing effect (dehumanizing... how ironic is that word - only human beings could act this way). For many, each killing makes the next easier. It happens in every war, pretty soon a reason to kill is no longer needed, instead they look for an excuse to kill. The religious fervor only adds to that, those religions which center around a reward in the after-life are, in truth (though you'll rarely get their adherents to admit it) death-oriented religions. Extremists in these religions (both Christianity and Islam follow this model) do not value life. They are fixated on death and on glorifying their cause to make them look good in the eyes of their God. It's an old problem, but one we have never been able to solve. I don't know if we ever will. To them they aren't doing it for no reason, they are doing it for God. It might sound insane... well, it is insane, but that is the way of it, just the same - mass insanity, spreading like wildfire.

 

I can see that we have young naive people here that are not familiar with Vietnam. The same types of asymmetrical warfare were practiced then too. The Viet Kong did not have a Navy or an Air Force. All they had was their will and determination to get us off of their land. When U.S. humanitarian aid people gave Vietnamese children inoculations against their common third world diseases, the Viet Kong would creep into the same villages and hack off the arms of those same children for accepting the invading forces good will. There method of warfare worked and they won.
Muslims are fighting for their land and their way of life. Just because you do not understand them does not mean that they are crazy. America is controlling and taking away everything from Iraq, including their chosen leader. We should not have invaded that country. Bush did not have American interests in that decision, only Halliburton oil's special interests.

Aren't we supposed to be looking for Osama bin Laden? Shouldn't we stop getting babies killed just so we can fill our gas tanks with their oil?

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_page1.htm



Is this Osama bin Laden or an Al Qaeda terrorist?

 

Not really. The portion of my message you quoted deals with how religious extremists justify their killing. I referred only to that particular group and not to the entirety of the resistant forces in Iraq.

I'm a bit obsessed with the evil inherent in religious fundamentalism, at the moment, so that's what I'm concentrating on. You are, of course, correct in your assessment of that portion of the Iraqi situation, but that wasn't what I was talking about. I can see why you might think otherwise, though. Sorry for the confusion.

 

this i can see as true..i still see their actions as wrong , i can understand when people say if we were not their then this would not be happening .. forgive my naiveness but i suspect it would in some shape or form. They were all probably doing very well under other regimes .. but now one that does not sit well with them they attack and kill. If you wish to get what you want you play the game and through gritted teeth see what is the best options ... killing people is not the best way IMHO .... defending your home is one thing , but i doubt it is their home they are defending..i have know real idea what they want so how can i see a reason for their actions...

The reason i say playing into terrorists hands is because we have formulated the perfect rationale for them to do what they do.. even if a lot of it is not actualy true and is only 'conspiritorial' and a lot of it not in any ones intrests apart from getting rid of Bush...i think that any truth should be found any bullshit got rid of..hating our leaders for actions that do not sit well with our morals only continues to throw logs on the fire...i very much doubt they are debating the truth and lies and our reasons for 'attacking' bother them at all...they have the means and now have the opportunity ... we have gladly given them the reason .

I fear they will change their mind...as soon as a peaceful resolution can be found..if they want to run their country ... what sort of country would it be ???.

Osama took advantage of the west and now he is not getting what he wants ... or what he wants has changed .. he has forced this 'war' into his own arena...too hell with the 'normal' people that get in the middle..

Thanks for the picture and link cyberfly..i don't think they care a toss about innocent peolpe like that...or what the innocent want or what the innocent think.

History will and maybe can explain why this happened and we can blame who we like for as long as we like...the thing i see is that they don't care.

See this is what i am talking about ... playing into their hands. They are not fighting for their land ... well if they are they are fighting for their individual land and property rights..not for the innocent people you have shown in your post..so forgive me if i have no sympathy for them at all. I could understand if the few questions i asked at the start could be answered then i just might be able too..

At this point i don't even think they are doing it for god...they have a funny way of going about it if they are.

 

Know matter how you look at the Iraqi resistance, you will see they are conservatives. They are trying to conserve their way of life. Since King George has taken over Saddam's job, he is killing as many civilians as Saddam did. It grows more ugly every day because George has not had as much practice at being a Middle East Dictator. The average Iraqi citizen is looking back at the good old days when Saddam kept peace and order in the region and everything like water and electricity worked and most people had jobs. Now no one is safe there and they hate us for it.

 

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Are you not contradicticting yourself..peace/order/jobs/water/electricity etc

with saddam also killing civilians..were i live i have those things apart from the threat of death on my doorstep...




Your not making me think anti-war people are not playing into terrorists hands...sorry.

 

Maybe the pro-war people are playing into terrorists hands, simply because the middle-eastern animosity against us is making it easier for the groups to recruit more potential terrorists.

 

If you have any time .. please explain that one for me ?? i am not realy blaming anyone i do apologise if it seems that way. I did just ask a few questions at the start..

Maybe pro-war people are...maybe we are as bad as each other..

Just because i am not anti-war or no war at all...does not mean i agree with all that is being done..all i am saying is anti-war people seem to the ones that preach peace but still make nice arguements for the terrorists..

and pro-war people show the idiocy of the arguement they make.

It could well be that we don't get to hear what they want..and when we do its a threat...so i maybe being unfair...but i still can't see were i am sadly mistaken...i realy wish i was .. i am listening.

i hate labels...but for this what else can i use..

 

No Mat, I am not. When Saddam ruled with an iron fist he put down revolutionary movements from dozens of religious factions. The economy worked and most people lived normal middle class lives in Iraq. Since the invasion, there is no order, the infrastructure that sustained the cities is in ruins and the middle class has been shattered.

Sera, you are absolutely right. The poverty that Bush has plunged the country into is a breeding ground for religious extremism. You can pay a starving Iraqi boy $50 and he will throw a live grenade at U.S. Troops.

The poverty stricken Deep South in the U.S. is a breeding for religious hatred as well. The poorest parts of the country is where the K.K.K. gets most of it's recruitment.

Since the industrial revolution, economic prosperity has caused most cultures around the world to abandon religious traditions and superstitions for science. Long ago religion and politics were one. Only recently has there been separation of church and state.

Beware of the political leader who claims that God is on our side.

 

I can understand you when you speak like that... i take it their is no real answers for the questions i ask (originaly)??.

Are the terrorists middle class ???

What about the poor the rich and the people that fall into no class division ?? was saddam looking after them as well.

I just get distracted by a lot of intelectualised bullshit..and crap cartoons that may have a point but seem smug and self righteuos... thats nothing personal by the way..lots of people do it.

is it all as simple as that...

I have lots to think about ...Thankyou