Whats very wrong with all Religion?

Nope. What does that do for you?

Necessary for something "miraculous" to happen. If there's a grease stain that looks like the virgin mary, people will line up to see it. A natural explanation is easy enough for a rational person to understand that while god may be giving us a sign, it's not necessary for him to be there for that to happen.

And a mind is a awfully big thing to attribute.

We can't for sure either way. What I'm arguing against is people that say they do know for sure. But if you're really trying to find things out, I think the scientific method is the best way to do it.

 

I would be interested to see your sources, and to hear what you think is suspect about this study. What journals did you look at? How did you decide which were good and which were not?

 

Wow after page 4 I feel I must interject. I am really impressed with the knowledge that has come out in this thread so far. Really impressed. I also see different "levels" of faith/knowledge/belief and find it most interesting and also lends to the character of each poster. I think all of you thus far are people with whom I would be honored to call human. Thank you for that and your thoughts.

Before going on to read page 5, I would like to interject that each of us no matter what current idea you embrace, what religion you say you have or don't have, each of us inside us, have something we simply instinctively can not pretend away. It is, and always has been there. It is the very reason any of us have read this thread. To me, not to words from a book , or any knowledge from religious bullshit or gospel, from just me as a person, a human being .. to you, this "something" is the essence of our souls, our spirituality. Its reality can not be denied, not even to an atheist. Its there and you each know it. Starting with merely being a human being is perhaps a good place to start. So much of that is unreflected..

To me, it goes against human nature, to kill another human for example. Another example is that it makes no sense to me, that if there is a God, an he having created the wonderment of our human body, that he would have us spend most of our lives, denying the fact or repressing the parts of us which are of a sexual nature. Religion, mans views, holds us in bondage, of who we have been created to be. How can any of us truly understand the "something" that is inside us, when we so very often repress who we are created to be, who we are as human beings! These are merely 2 examples of a long list of examples I can think of. Please don't focus on these examples in rebuttal, as they truly are only examples, chosen specifically to aid you in recognizing the thought expressed here. The whole picture.

Common sense can go a long way in identifying something in which we place stock in. Any religion, that would kill people for GOD, is not of GOD. God created humans, if you believe in a GOD. Using merely common sense coupled with that "something" inside you that brought you here... think on only those two things, not what you have learned, but what you have already in you and always have, by the way.... tell me, God would have you kill for him?? If any religion by which you are following, believing in, standing up for ( which is very admirable), or telling your children is right, has now or in the past mentioned killing as favorable to GOD, it is time for you to look again, and I suggest you start with what you already have inside you. We all have it. And you know it. Start there, start with what you know is right as a human being. Created by God, or merely a an ameba, we all have been created, formed, established. Look first to that human part and that "something" inside you, with common sense.

You do not have to deny a religion at this point, but you do have to admit to self what you know. Go slow, easy on yourself, but you must go. Follow only what you know instinctively, humanly, spiritually, is correct.. and your journey will be as it should be. Utilize each human instinct in your search. This is who we are. I hope this helps us all. We need each other so much.

 

Wow, I didn't realise we had reached this number of pages!

 

Oh I love this thread, wonderful concepts of thought, people disagreeing yet remaining respectful, yes this is a place for growth.

Moonbeam, you stand proudly and you stood valiantly fighting for what you believe in.
I just wanted you to know I noticed.

Several points need to be agreed on collectively .. and I think they are really. Truth and Religion can not be together.
Truth is fact
Religion is based on a belief in some principal or being that can not be proven tangibly.
Truth is proven tangibly.
However, a belief CAN be truth. You can not prove it, so don't try.

Zietgeist, a film, will open many eyes, and you only need to view the first 15 minutes. http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=22802

Clearly I think we all can agree here at least on this much.

There has been a discussion on the power of prayer. The idea behind power can be summoned up in this example of prayer as consciousness and measured in reality with quantum physics. When we have a group of people collectively, consciously, agreeing on one thought, as in prayer, it does have power to affect lives and even stop matter in motion, or change a previously achieved logical function. This is truth. Proven fact.
Many studies, sources, and science has indeed proven this.

Lets take this thing called Religion and place it aside for just a moment. Religion, can not get us collectively in agreement. Spirituality on the other hand is something we all can at least in theory stand together on.

What if "heaven" or spiritual reality is merely residing in a different dimension?

 

I think, retaining a sense of wonder and mystery can be a good thing.

When one is curious and wonders why things happen, and uses his mind to seek answers, that is when progress happens, knowledge is gained and hopefully something good and positive comes out of it.

For example, when some religious person prays and it does rain, such person is quick to claim the event as proof of an answer to his prayers and therefore, an act of some supernatural "god", when the event was merely a coming together of weather patterns that brought about the rain.

 

I like so much of what you've said in this and the foregoing post that I feel like a heel saying that I have real reservations about the accuracy of the Zeitgeist film, which I've expressed in previous threads. See p. 6 (at least that's what it is now), Christian Forum, Zeitgeist movie.

 

For studies showing positive results from intercessory prayer, see Randolpf Byrd's study in Southern Medical Journal (1988) and W.S. Harris et al, Archives of Internal Medicine (1999), 159; Larry Dossey, Healing Words; The Power of Prayer and the Practice of Medicine (1993). For critiques of such studies, see Stenger, Has Science Found God (2003), pp. 237-55;Flamm, Faith Healing Confronts Modern Medicine, Scientific Review of Alternative Medicine (2004). And, of course, the study you cited, Benson et al Harvard STEP project reported in American Heart Journal (2006).The investigators in the STEP study speculated that the complications experienced by the patients who knew they were being prayed for resulted from their heightened anxiety about being in such bad shape divine intervetion was necessary. What puzzles me is how supposedly rational scientists could believe they could study prayer under controlled circumstances. The Abrahamic God of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam wouldn't be likely to participate in such a study, and presumably God is the source of the power of prayer.

 

Eh, no offense, but I don't buy these supposed "studies", no matter how carefully conducted, perhaps, they were done.

For every person in this world who got healed of a certain ailment because of the supposed power of "prayer", another person recovered without the need of prayer, let alone to a Christian god.

Sorry, but to me, these studies are essentially meaningless.

 

Yes, they are. My point.

 

Hi thank for your comments all of them.

For the record there is no claim made by me or the studies, to cure or heal. I did however say that there is power in the collective conscious thought of a group of people and even in that of just one person. My apologies for not including some info on these studies that came to mind. I know better than that. Sometimes when something is known to be fact for some time, I forget that others may not know that information. Again, I am sorry and let me see if I can't get a few of the ones that I can remember.

Quantum Physics: Very good and short. You will enjoy this. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4036547094214992850

Quantum Dimension (An extra thrown in for an FYI)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=390849738419231822

Collective Consciousness: http://www.heartmath.org/gcms/index.html

This next link is only 11 minutes long but I bit off topic in the first half. The 2nd half really will hit home and the entire 11 minutes is well worth a listen.
http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1650365

I have more sources and science to add if you should require them. But please remember that if you simply and most profoundly look inside of yourself and remember to use common sense, forgetting inherited tradition and faith systems, you can see the truth of what is and always has been. "Something" brought us all to this place and to our need to believe in something. What if it is as the scientists and the spiritualists now believe has been proven? A field of energy, of consciousness, that we as human beings all share in common with each other and with the universe, even down to the sub atomic matter of an atom. Written into and apart of our very dna. The effect on life would surely be that of oneness. This makes every cell in my body tingle with delight. Hope it does you too.

I was talking with a friend of mine about you all, the people in this thread. I am so impressed that the topic of religion, the diverse belief systems witnessed here, and the various ages and genders of its participants, not only proved successful and remained in respect to each other, but also seems to have caused each person that participated to learn something from the others. That is very rare and very cool and very special. I am truly honored to be a part of it and to know you ... all of you.

Okie Freak, Wow, I gotta say, I am on my way to read about your reservations. If ever I hoped my research missed something, it would be in that of this movie. Talk about a reality check and a spiritual titanic at the same time lol I was left speechless. That my friends is very hard to do. I can tell you that I never would have offered up that movie had I not felt that all here could handle it. Its not something I am comfortable sharing with people because of its potential affect on foundations that take years to create. However, to be honest, those foundations are what is truly screwing us all up. So I look forward to your work. On my way now. Thanks for the compliments and please , I welcome your heel. Honest!!

 

OkieFreak, I can't find it and you should have provided a link .. will you do so now so I can learn of the problems I could not find with the movie. Thanks

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/485268.stm

This article shows that there is no rational explanation for why being prayed for fared better than those who weren't.

 

Good post. Thank you for sharing those videos.

I certainly prefer any article or explanation offered by quantum physics, or any branch of science more than what any of the "religious" folks have to offer, which is basically are nothing more than quackery, hearsay,
hearsay and superstition.

The videos on quantum physics were certainly interesting, however, not entirely convincing at this point due to certain technical matters, such as the credentials of the authors of the original video, validity and reproducibility of experiments conducted, sample size, lack of peer review, etc., etc.

For the life of me, I still cannot get the connection of why certain religious folks need to treat mysteries, solved and unsolved, somehow have to imply on a "God" a "collective consciousness" or whatever.

Yes, I agree, there are mysteries out there.

Perhaps, in time, some of these mysteries will be solved, explained and shed light on, while others still won't, but so what??

 

Glad you enjoyed them Stev90. I wish to clear you up on one thing though, maybe two.

Quantum.. The slot experiment is very famous and proves time and time again, that the mere act of observing matter on a sub atomic level causes it to react in an unexpected and unpredictable manner. Meaning that it does indeed have its own energy field and an intelligence.

It also confirms the idea that has been around scientifically that all matter is ultimately apart of a field of energy .. all. We are all a part of this field , everything in this world and universe.

The 11 minute movie, talks of and also gives reference to verifiable data that people got together in strategic places around a war time country and collectively concentrated and felt in their hearts and minds about peace . What it felt like to live in peace. Doing so caused the entire region to Cease in gunfire etc, Not slow it but ceased it. This can be verified.

It also talks of a code in our own dna that is readable by several ancient civalizations alphabets. Our dna all coded to say the same readable phraze. The fact that that is actually truth boggles the mind and it says that whoever put this code into our dna and even that of plants etc. that someone or something put it there. It is deliberate. All of these links show that there is something bigger that links all life together on this planet. I know you can never obtain the proof you are looking for so stop looking in these threads. If you are so resolved to the fact that their is no God or whatever you want to call it , then move on and stop coming. It seems to me and I know I have hit a nerve here but that "something" I been talking about inside us all, is simply and most profoundly calling to you and you simply want what you can't get before you will listen. This is your life... your call.. But as for me... I am not going to deny something I have known in me all of my life. Its what guides me daily and if you ever dared to allow yourself to simply throw off your belief s learned from whatever source and listen just to it, to your sence of human being , you will surely be amazed where it leads you. I know it blows my mind.

I am not religious. Truth be told I literally loathe all religions. They are seriously evil institutions formed for profit of a few and to control the lives of others. To literally keep people from learning who they have been created to be. Oppressing people under laws made by men. Its evil and no one needs to look very far to see the blood on each and ever religious institution. Its so thick it wreaks. No God would seak to destroy that which he created for pleasure or in obediance. It goes against all forms of love that I have ever known.

However, I know and am hardlined into a spiritual reality and gain so much insight daily that is full of wonder and rocks my world very often. I yield myself to that "something" inside me and truly am amazed at what I learn simply by listening. I know from a physical first hand experience that there is something magical or spiritual out there and in me.

If I had not have had that one very real supernatural experience though, I know I would be someone struggling with the "something" inside me, but very unsure of what it is though. So I understand where many are. I mean lets face it, miracles are few and far between in this world these days. Corruption is every fucking where and human beings have lost the value of life. Seeing the face of God in times like these has to be a small miracle in and of itself. Every relion has lied and committed horrendous things. My gosh who can you trust when you can't trust a church. WTF is that??? So yeah I hear ya. But listen, I know how you feel .. but thats why its important to utilize brain capacity here. You know that "something" is there inside you.... You know it is. Stop with the doubt and grumbings and listen .. If not thats ok too. You miss out on learning so much .. but if your happy and content rock on. Just be happy .

Peace out!!
I think your cool and as is everyone I met so far. This place Rocks. I am here if you want to rap .. Any of you. OK?

Niagra

 

What is inside of you, is you.

The image of yourself painted by ego is just a representation of the true inner reality.

The human identity is just a mask, and the soul within, an actor on stage.

The true self sits in the audience and watches the show.


x

 

Yes, very interesting stuff and observations on quantum mechanics etc.

The problem is, most people do not think, nor do they seek to conduct their daily lives in terms of the principles of quantum mechanics.

Many are happy enough just to pay the rent, drink their Starbucks cafe latte, watch American Idol on tv, gossip about Britney Spears, and perhaps, do some Bible study on the side, just in case...

 

If you're talking about my reference to the zeitgeist movie, it's on this site, in the Christianity forum. Go there, look at the box at the upper right corner where it says page 1 of 112, etc. Then click on p. 6. The Zietgeist movie topic will be about three quarters of the way down.

 

lol .. You make me smile Steve90 .. hehe "just in case" that was funny and I hear ya.

xexon.. you were oine of the 2 I first noticed in this thread as having "it". I must say I am very surprised by your response above though. You know that is not true and I hope you don't by into that nonsense .. I mean this is not a dress rehersal and none of this is acting. This is our life and lives. At least the only one we get here I spose. I dunno. But you of all people are in touch with the "something" inside that has always been there that lets you know theres more to this than living a life and dying right? dang you bummed me out!!

Okie freak. I have looked ok?? I do want to read it so please .. go open the page you want me to read .. Copt your browsers address bar once its opened to the right page and then come back here and paste me the link to that page. I'm new here and I did look and went to each page in my search and i did not find it. Everyone else has to do their links .. your turn big guy!!

I'm off for Dinner.,. cyas soon.

 

http://hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260052
Does that get it?