Hari Om! Ok so some of you here know some of my thoughts regarding free will, karma, reincarnation, etc so I am not going to go into my "Grand Scheme" of why we are what we are. But just to get some opinions, I was wondering, do you think in general of course, that most people who are highly spiritual, have grown up poor and maybe even remained poor until the present? I just wonder because you see that most of the people who other's get advice from, have lived a very difficult life and have had to overcome many ego breaking obstacles, hence the ability to guide and heal. As for spirituality, we have the very poor who through ignorance and not enough time to reflect on life, never evolve their consciousness and resort to doing whatever it is they do just to get by. Then we have the poor who use religion as a crutch because, well I dont know, perhaps the emptyness, the insubstantial nature of reality, leaves them feeling useless and alone? Just a guess really. Then there are the rich who abuse the poor under the guise of religion. But Im not talking about religion. Im talking about spirituality, one's own connection to God that does not require a middle man, does not require scripture, nor a fear of death. Im talking about those who are excited to die because it's just a natural part of life. You meet them in the forests, drumming around fires. You meet them in communes, living off the land. You meet them asking for change on the street corners, going on and on about the beauty of life though they have nothing. Why is that? Is is the renunciation of material attachment which liberates the mind? Is it because they appreciate every little thing they have, but do not suffer from the loss of people, things, lifestyle, comfort, and so on? Ok that's all I have for now. My question again is Are the truly spiritual people, in general, poor from birth, or at least turn to a simpler, less elaborate lifestyle (though they may have serious loot in a bank somewhere) because of the love they have for God alone? Thank you in advance to anyone who reads this, and many blessings to those who reply. Your friend, John Namaste
In general, truly spiritual people are people who have been tested and have been able to overcome. The experience nurtures an inner strength which will invariably reflect itself in the person's demeanor and attitude. Since the poor face more challenges and must find a way to overcome them, they have a tendency to hold a better perspective on things than someone who has been able to throw money at or hire a lawyer to deal with problems. Having to summon inner strength to tackle adversity, particularly when the very limits of that strength gets tested and the outcome of a situation is uncertain, can force a person to use his spirituality to create the inner peace necessary to "keep it together" and deal with seemingly endless turmoil. Being tested will educate one that life holds very few easy answers, if any and often the best solution to a challenge is arrived at after carefully assessing the situation with full mental resources devoted to problem solving without the intelligence sapping effect of strong emotion. Intelligence, will, and emotion are but three facets of one's spiritual self that if left uncultivated are fated to mark a person with weak spirituality given to losing their perspective in the details that, in the grand scheme of things, will prove to not matter. I shall now hope this made sense and I didn't stray too far from your subject. Peace.
Thank you friend, this makes perfect sense and I wholeheartedly agree. I find that there are two basic occurences which take one towards God which fragment and break down into individual experience. They are 1. Miracles and 2. Trouble. I think, with a purely scientific approach, either of these have roots in the changing of the neural pathways in the brain, forced into specific channels which will obviously be more receptive of certain things while exluding others. With miracles, it completley comes down to a personal experience, I could go on and on listing the various miraculous occurences I've encountered in my 22 years on Earth so far, but anyone who reads it may as well just tell me that weird things happen and I am making a connection which does not exist. And that will be fine, I of course can accept an opinion different than mind without having to argue what only I know considering that only I was present. A miracle, not in the sense of blindness being cured, raising the dead, etc, Im talking about how everything human beings create is nothing more than an extention of the mind, whether it is a projection of desire materialized into satisfaction, or a true extension of the mind's nature. Take radio, television, computers, and now interent for an example. All external stimuli is obviously nothing more than a certain coded vibration frequency, which the mind 'picks up' on, interprets the data, considers the data, and then returns the emanation on whatever frequency the mind attunes itself with. This is very basic and not new at all, at least not in an all enclusive sense. So the miracles I am speaking of, is not magic, and not coincedence. It is purely physical and something I feel science will be getting closer to accepting (many already are, actually). It is another dimension of perception I am getting at, the subtle vibrations and electricites which are constantly around us at every moment, bombarding us and going through us and bouncing right back out. Certain occurences take place that seem like coincidence but in fact may very well be subtle actions taking place on the imperceptible planes all around and within us. For example, last night I was taking a shower, and seemingly out of nowhere the song Man On The Moon by REM just falls into my head and I started singing it. This is a song I have not heard in years, and I can think of no subtle relation to it that I may have come across in the recent past other than the lunar eclipse occuring tonight around 10pm, which is doubtful that Id relate it subconsciously to that song but anyway. So I get out of the shower and my wife and I decide to go get some beer. We walk in the bar, and there it is, Man On The Moon, playing on the radio. Why? And this may seem like coincidence but keep in mind that this sort of situation presents itself to me quite often. I remember as a child, many, many times would I be sitting at the kitchen table with my father, or in the car, and he would start humming a tune or singing the lyrics of a song and say "Watch this..." as he would then turn on the radio, and there it would be, every time, without fail, the very song playing on the radio. This was not a one time freak thing, this happened every weekend that I went to visit him and went on for years. Again, why? And how? Anyway, after we got back from the bar, my wife started to have deja vu in relationship to nothing important. I wonder what the connection is. I believe it to be God's code of creation revealing itself temporarily to make us aware that we do not have free will, and that subtle intentions are bombarding us all the time, we just dont know HOW to control the receptive qualities of our satelite minds. I have to get back to work but I wanted to breifly cover what I consider miracles, though in actuality everything is a miracle and nothing is more special than anything else in my view. I will cover what I consider trouble and how it relates to the poor and share my own experience later on. I myself grew up dirt poor and have been that way every since. But I am happy, my son is happy and healthy, Iliana is happy, and to us it never matters. I feel that Love is all that matters and those who cultivate it are truly the richest people in the world. Anyway I will add when I have the time. Peace and Health my family! namaste
good question. I'm not sure, though. I've known a few willfully poor people, and many were on some type of path that involved their living situation. I think external wealth is spiritually detrimental, if anything.
My dad thinks that God pulled him directly out of His ass, and that that is his direct connection to the Divine. I think that spirituality has two faces, the superficial one most people claim, and a deeper more complicated one that only some have obtained. I'd like to think myself in the latter, but I could be wrong. Going to Mass every Sunday (and/or Wednesday) is superficial, unless you truly feel the Divine in your heart. You can stay at home and get the same spiritual benefit from weeding your garden. "God made this weed, put it right here. and I will reach into the soil and rip it violently from its home. What would Jesus do?" Obstacles, Turmoil, pain, fear, anguish all cause a perspective that must be interpreted. Not only that, but you have to have a big enough vocabulary to describe your feelings. I often tell my hubby he looks pensive, and I recall years ago, that he didn't know the word, he just hadn't come across it. I feel happy. why do I feel happy? If we don't recognize our feelings as they occur, we can't understand them. When my son died, the hardest part was while I was giving him CPR. when the police and ambulance got there I FORGOT about my other son. then, I had to choose to go with Achaius, or stay and wait for my hubby to bring the carseats. I knew when they had me in the cop car, waiting until a family member arrived to let me go in. I knew when there was no bustle in the room. I grieved, but I accepted it as it was, unchangeable. Can't bring back the dead. Pain helps us grow. the poor experience it on a regular basis, but everyone faces hardship eventually. I believe some people are born especially spiritual, into all sorts of families. I still only have one belief, the one I started my spiritual journey with, and that belief is Love. I have yet to find another "commandment" that lives up to it. I think that you can achieve spiritual greatness by an understanding of Love alone. My train of thought crashed at the station. crap. I'll be back later, after coffee.
people with not allot of money want everything they need. God might be a way for them to rely on someone else, including themselves, to get out of hardship and bankruptcy. they're looking for the easiest and hardest way out of depression, even though most of them know by now god isn't going to do a damn thing but keep your hopes up, even though they're also doing that themselves. but what do they have to loose right? most of the wealthy rely on god to help them stay the way they are. to thank (him) for everything the person has achieved. though i think it's all up to the person, god or not, is what makes their lifestyle the way it is. god's not doing anything but keeping his eye on us, and creating us. he can't change your lifestyle. of course this is all in my opinion and what i believe. relayer i miss reading your posts man. i need to come by more often.
You are truly one of a kind. My harships pale in comparison to what you have just shared with us and I feel that you must be on an entirley differenet level. If I could bow to you online I would Mother's Love, and I respect that your positive additude rests on Love and nothing else. Om shanti strong woman. Namaste.
i dont think that spirituallity has anything to do with money its about your very own personal views. Someone whos rich from birth can feel the same about life as the homeless man. Money is just a way to gain status in life. I think that having lots of money can sway a person from spirituallity because of the power they have but the richest person is not the one with the most money its the person who is humble and enjoys all of life and every living thing in it!!!
Not all of the spiritual people I've met have been poor, though to me a poor person is someone who cant cover their most basic necessities and there's a difference between being poor and not having any money. Of course if you are poor, you dont have any money, but if you dont have any money, you're not necessarily poor, that is if you have everything you need to survive. I think poor people usually have a stronger faith and are more passionate about God than others. They speak in a different way and whenever I encounter this people that I know really feel what they are saying, I cant do nothing else than to listen to them. I always remember two years ago, I met this older guy on my bday and he was playing guitar and singing for money, he was great too. So I went and put some money in his guitar case. After he finished playing he sat down next to me and started talking about God, Love, Life, Death. His clothes were completely worn out and dirty, but he was content. He was happy, I didnt ask him, but I could tell in the way that he spoke. This kid that was sitting next to me, was arguing what he was saying, but there was nothing to argue, he KNEW what he was talking about, so I could do nothing more than smile and listen. I felt happy to be listening to this man speak, because he had a certain glow and you could tell that he didnt want anything and at that time, I was happy for him, but I also felt envy that I didnt have what he had. I was left wondering who really was the poor person, him content with nothing, able to share with joy his wisdom or me who with more than what I need felt alone, confused and sad. I think that when you have nothing, you are able to really look inside and find what we all have, but are too distracted to look for, one it has been found it carries with it a different appreciation for everything. A hug to Mother's Love :hug:
Perhaps the word poor is too broad of a term being that it reflects poverty. I guess what I meant is in general, the people who are struggling to have the basic things, food, shelther, water, etc. whether they are homeless or have a job and a home. Lower than the middle class, if that helps. I would say that for me, from the ages between 2 and 8, I was what you would call living in poverty. From 15-18, I was off and on what you would call homeless, though I for the most part always found some place to rest my head for the night. And during the earlier part of last year, I only ate when my son was with me because I couldnt afford food during the week for myself, the gas to drive to work alone was upwards of 100.00 a week. That was poverty and everyday we hell for me, but I remained positive and now have very fond memories of that part of my life. It's funny because I received deeksha from my friend Jason who is actually fairly wealthy and someone who people might make assumptions that he is a spoiled person, that kind of thing. But he is the highest person I've ever met, for sure. At the same time, I first came to know God during the time period when I couldnt afford food. So it's definitley all relative and I dont want anyone to take my question out of context. Of course not every poor person is spiritual and not every wealthy person is materialistic. I am just asking which group of people, in all of you guys experience, have been more spiritual. In my experience, it has been the people who are struggling to get by, in a vast majority. But Im just interested to hear what other people have experienced. Namaste
Another interesting thing to point out is the differences between spiritual leaders, prophets and the like. You have Buddha, who was born into wealth, but did not attain enlightenment until renouncing material things (though this may have more to do with age than renunciation, but that's another matter entirely). You have Krishna who was a king, and Arjuna who was royal family soldier. Both talked of renunciation. You have Jesus who was born into poverty and was treated like a King after his enlightenment. So it's interesting when you compare the ancient people, like Muhammad who was also treated like a King after meeting the angel Gabriel. So I guess when it comes down to it, there is no real generalization. Just because most of the spiritual guidance I've received came from lower class people, doesnt mean anything. Perhaps also when we look at the world, like I was trying to do in the intial post, we see certain interesting notes. It is well known that India is the most spiritual country, and in fact the Mother of spirituality, and masses of people there barely even have food to eat. But many, Im sure, are blind followers, just like the blind followers everywhere else in the world, which apparently will always be in the majority. I dont think there is any real conclusion we can come to after deeper reflection on the matter.
Thank you, I hope no one here has to learn the same lessons the same way. "I shall be telling this with a sigh somewhere ages and ages hence, Two roads diverged in a wood and I, I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference."
Any debilitating situation can inspire us to seek spiritual aid from God or wherever you believe you will find it .
