in some very isolated places, in india, sometimes the most terrible happens... there was this remote village in nothern india, the woman in the family had nightmares where kali was disturbing her peace... she went to a wandering holyman to get some advice (and paid him) he said: "you need to make a sacrifice to kali, a chicken. " she did that, the nightmares got worse... she went back to the "tantrik" (it was his title), and this time he said she needed to sacrifice a human baby. So at night she went to a neighbour and took the 3 month old baby, with the help of her grown up son, they went in the woods, and did it, sacrificed the baby. the next morning she screamed and said she found the body outside her house.... of course the whole story came up, she went to jail, but the "tantrik" was never found.... the probleme is that superstition together with lack of education will cause situations like this. it is not common, but it does happen in india, this is not the only case of sacrifices..... fear and superstition can sometimes have a very sad and morbid effect...
... and all because of a few nightmares. Crazy indeed. But why, if the great goddess... the absolute source of all knowledge, wisdom and practically everything, turns up in her dreams, did she go to some quack holyman to ask for advise? Did she not think of just asking Kali? ... and it's always a chicken isn't it!
"the probleme is that superstition together with lack of education will cause situations like this. it is not common, but it does happen in india, this is not the only case of sacrifices..... fear and superstition can sometimes have a very sad and morbid effect..." Such things also happen in the well educated USA. Education is not a cure for superstition as people will always believe things they can't disprove. Look how many people believe in the Anti-Christ. x
Coincidentally I happened to read this the other night: "....there are so many of these entities called Kali - who are given, besides, quite terrible appearances - so many are even placed in houses as the family goddess; they are full of a terrible vital force! I knew people who were so frightened of the Kali they had at home that indeed they trembled to make the least mistake, for when catasrophes came they thought it was Kali who sent them! It is a frightful thing, thought. I know them, these entities, I know them very well, but they are vital beings, vital forms which, so to say, are given a form by human thought, and what forms! And to think that men worship such terrible and monstrous things....." Sweet Mother. Just to clarify - Mother is saying here that the forms worshiped as Kali are not Kali but forces of lower planes given form by human thought. They are not and do not represent the divine. They are representations of what are often termed 'demons' or asuras.
In my own understanding and in my own psyche, Kali is one of the three faces of the triple goddess ...the great mother goddess. She is the face that represents death and renewal or transformation. In India i guess this mother goddess is called Shakti ... in the UK where i live her traditional name would be perhaps to some ,.. Brighid, and in Europe generally she may be called Hekate. In psychological terms, as a male human being she is simply my animus. But all this goddess stuff is myth and archetype and not real, and not really feminine at all but is simply my awareness and spirit which my ego doesn't know about. My ego is fearful in it's separation and my mind falls on the images of the collective unconcious to give this awareness form in order for my thinking mind to have something tangible to grasp onto. The more my ego surrenders and diminishes, the more i realise i AM this awareness and in doing so, my unconcious becomes concious and i go beyond these gender archetypes. For me is't just a phase my mind goes through on my way to realisation... a bridge, so to speak. Shit happens and if we are living in the grip of ego and denial, then we see these happenings as being created by some hostile force outside of ourselves (ie. Kali) and our egos take it all very personally and live in fear of it. To me, this is superstition. It is almost impossible for someone in ego and unconciousness to find full awareness in one single step ... our mental egoic structures go through a process of decay ... the 'dark night of the soul', to reach awareness. It doesn't happen instantly (i wish it did!), so for most of us, we have to go through all this astral fear and loathing and pain.... and that, in this instance is Kali; The death of ego and rebirth in awareness. Quote: "there are so many of these entities called Kali" ... i disagree, i'm sure there is only one Kali .. real, imagined or otherwise. I have met Kali and other goddesses or aspects of goddess in my dreams. I never have followed any pagan tradition or beliefs ...It just started happening in my dreams without any seeking or wanting on my part. Yes, it's all in the mind but it's just that bridge again.
You're absolutely free to agree or disagree. However, I think that it is a bit of a narrow vision which says there are no entities higher than the human mind. Did the form of Kali you met in your dreams have the features depicted in the images to whcih reference is being made here? How do you know it was Kali?
Obviously as I said, anyone is free to believe whatever seems right to them on this or in fact any other issue. For my part, I prefer to accept Sweet Mother's version.
Well for starters it's not you i'm disagreeing with but just a part of the quoted passage written by 'sweet mother' ..whoever she may be, and i agree with her that it's our minds that give form to this power/entity/awareness ... whatever it is (to me this is beyond gender). Did i say there are no entities higher than the human mind? I don't think i did, and i don't think the human mind is an entity, but rather the human soul which to me is but a fragment of a greater entity ... i believe everything is one ultimately ... the one life behind all life. I'm not particularly into Hinduism and when i use the name Kali i could just as well use the Greek 'demeter' to mean the same thing, even Shiva of the trimurti ...the destroyer; even though Shiva is depicted as male (alot of the Hindu pantheon seem to be rather androgynous ... hinting towards being beyond gender again) it stands for the same thing, ie. That which brings about endings, change, and transformation ... both petty and seemingly unimportant or the end of the universe itself. To answer your last question, No the 'Kali' (different names the world over in all languages) in one dream was simply three old hags with their black dogs hanging around an old wrought iron gate (which i take to be the 'west gate' ie. Death ... where the sun goes down). In another the form was of three vampire women (in the dream they were three women i know in waking life) biting my neck (think snakes/kundalini/transformation). Yes i agree, each to their own, it's a personal journey after all, and if you go with 'sweet mothers' version, could you explain why?
Because that is the path I try to follow. Because that is where my experiences and spiritual seeking have led me. If you want to know who She was, this site will give you some info. http://www.miraura.org/ A brief sketch of Her life http://www.gurusoftware.com/GuruNet/AurobindoMother/Mother.htm I'd just say that this isn't traditional 'Hinduism' but a specific path of Yoga.
Hare Krishna! It's very confusing. God alone knows who is talking about which Kali ! Seewt Mother...... whatever she said must be right because it is foolishness to even doubt her but the point is not clear which Kali she is talking about. This cannot be the same Goddess Kali that Sri Ramakrishna had worshipped. So, it is not the problem with Goddess Kali but with our ignorance. It is a matter of choice and same God becomes Jesus, Krishna, Kali, Durga, Buddha etc. If we take them as God then the question of plane, level, sura, asura and all that does not come at all....... it comes only when we think that it is a blood-thirsty Goddess. Terribly disturbing.....
I think that's it - It isn't that Kali is not the Divine - it is just the false picture people have in their minds of Kali, which has been translated by artists into images. Surely, if one were to get even a glimpse of Kali Ma as She is, it would be an experience of beauty beyond the human ken. Just as Sri Ramakrishna says! But the same thing is true in the case of many human ideas about God from many cultures. In the remote past it seems that ignorant human beings projected all their own negative qualities onto their idea of God - anger, cruelty, holding grudges, vengefulness - all of those things. Later on, more illumined people realized that God isn't like that - And many believe He reveales His true nature of Love in Incarnations such as Jesus, Krishna, Sri Chaitanya etc. But still, even today, there are many who regard God as a kind of monster to be feared - they believe he will send people to eternal hell. All this comes not from the divine, but the lower side of human nature. Some people even think God is a type of being who desires them to kill others they regard as his 'enemies' in his name. All of this is human misconception. It is not at all indicative of the true nature of the Divine who is all Love and Bliss and knowledge.
Well i had a little read and she sounds quite lovely! And i do agree with this especially: "Sri Aurobindo and myself are one and the same consciousness, one and the same person." This is probably the highest realisation that i ever ... realised! That myself and someone i loved very mutch were one and the same being ... that our physical bodies (also made of the same stuff) gave the illusion that we were separate ... but we were not. And thanks for reminding me of what i sometimes forget... because it brings great responsibility... a responsibility i shudder at.
Yes - it is a great responsibility to be a conscious human being at this time.... But one we can carry - I'm sure of that. And yes - we are all One. To realize that is a huge thing. It gives me happiness when people express anything positive about Sri Aurobindo and the Mother these days. They are one of the great hopes for humanity, although not widely enough known about..
I tell you what. This thread has suddenly become the most important thread on the whole of the forums for me. Wow! Thanks both of you ... all of you!
