Do you support the Earth/Animal Liberation Front?

I for one firmly support the actions of the Earth Liberation Front (ELF) and wish to see more kind of people engaging in this type of direct action. The destruction of the planet is not going to stop just because we pass more laws, or go green, or stop driving cars...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Liberation_Front

Thoughts?
Do you support groups such as these that engage in economic sabotage?

 

I am reminded of two aphorisms:

The ends do not justify the means.

The lesser of two evils is still evil.

No, I do not support groups that use violence.

 

Yep, they're all a bunch of nutballs.

 

Yes, but do you really believe that we can really stop the destruction and torture of the earth and animals using only 'peaceful' means? It seems to me that despite everything we do, peaceful or not, not only does environmental destruction show no signs of stopping, it's actually accelerating.
And to go further, do you really define destruction of property as 'violent'. From my point of view, the institutions that are destroying the planet, poisoning the air and water and torturing and killing millions of animals are infinitely more violent than the ALF or ELF will ever be. Do you not think that it is acceptable for people to use any means necessary to protect their lives and the health of their communities, loved ones and landbase?

Here's a question: say a man attacks a woman and tries to rape her. They struggle, and finally the woman realizes that unless she kills him, she will be raped. What then? Are you really going to tell her that the ends never justify means. Her not getting raped comes at the price of his life. Is she still evil?

What I really want to know is, why are we afraid of actually confronting the issue here. Despite all the little things we do, from recycling to driving less to boycotting to buying energy efficient lightbulbs, the earth is still being poisoned, animals are still being tortured and murdered. When are we going to realize that unless we step up our actions, these things are going to continue.
The only critiscism I have of groups like the Earth Liberation Front and the Animal Liberation Front is that these kind of actions don't happen more frequently.

 

Yes, but do you really believe that we can really stop the destruction and torture of the earth and animals using only 'peaceful' means?

It is the only means that has any potential of working. Violence does not work, it has precisely the opposite of the desired effect. When violence is used all of the reasonable, rational members of society begin to equate an issue with a violent, fringe group. There is no surer way to impede progress towards an amicable resolution than to introduce violence.

It seems to me that despite everything we do, peaceful or not, not only does environmental destruction show no signs of stopping, it's actually accelerating.


Yep, and there's no surer way to ensure that the problems are never solved than to use violence.


And to go further, do you really define destruction of property as 'violent'.

Of course I do, as does nearly every other person on the planet.

From my point of view, the institutions that are destroying the planet, poisoning the air and water and torturing and killing millions of animals are infinitely more violent than the ALF or ELF will ever be.

Very few people would agree with you. Nothing will change until you can persuade people to join your point of view, and that will never happen when using violonce/terrorism as an instrument.

Do you not think that it is acceptable for people to use any means necessary to protect their lives and the health of their communities, loved ones and landbase?


Yes, but these groups do not use violence to protect their lives. They use violence as a means to terrorize those that disagree with them. Terrorism doesn't work: it never has, and it never will.

Here's a question: say a man attacks a woman and tries to rape her. They struggle, and finally the woman realizes that unless she kills him, she will be raped. What then? Are you really going to tell her that the ends never justify means. Her not getting raped comes at the price of his life. Is she still evil?

The only time when violence IS considered acceptable by society is when ones life or well-being is directly threatened. Of course she has the right to use violence to protect herself.

What I really want to know is, why are we afraid of actually confronting the issue here.

Afraid of confronting the issue???

Despite all the little things we do, from recycling to driving less to boycotting to buying energy efficient lightbulbs, the earth is still being poisoned, animals are still being tortured and murdered. When are we going to realize that unless we step up our actions, these things are going to continue.

So get to work in persuading people that this is wrong. Once you become violent, however, you segregate yourself from reasonable people that might otherwise have supported you.

The only critiscism I have of groups like the Earth Liberation Front and the Animal Liberation Front is that these kind of actions don't happen more frequently.

If that is your only criticism then you are seriously harming your own causes. If you support the use of violence the rest of society, myself included, will be happy to dismiss you. If you engage in violence the rest of society, myself included, will be happy to imprison you and to prevent you from using violence against us.

Chris

 

Ok first of all, if violence does not "work", then how did the United States government manage to exterminate almost all of the former indigenous inhabitants of North America? How did Hitler manage to conquer all of Europe? Violence works just as well for the oppressor as for the oppressed. I'm not saying that violence is the only means, I'm saying that in some cases, using violence is way more effective in getting people to stop murdering the planet than writing letters, or protesting, or boycotting...
Second of all, who are you referring to when you speak of "all the reasonable rational members of society"? As I write this, millions of species (includingour own) are being poisoned and killed by a system we like to call "civilization". And yet, people continue to participate and live in this system without showing any sign of changing their habits, or even questioning their way of life. Where are the reasonable rational people you speak of?
And third, I am not interested in an "amicable" resolution. I am not interested in compromise. I have not interest in saying "ok, you can destroy this half of the planet and we get to keep this half". No, the only thing I want is for the destruction to STOP - and I will settle for nothing less.

Here's what it comes down to: violence is violence. It is not inherently good nor is it inherently bad. It just is. There are some cases where violence is acceptable, justifiable and even necessary, and there are some cases where it is not.
If signing a petition will stop the destruction of the planet, I'll sign it. If singing a song will do it, I'll sing. If staging a protest, boycotting a company, making a documentary, creating an NGO and so on will do it, I'll gladly help. But it seems to me that we have been doing these things over and over, for the past 20 years, and those in power are not showing any signs of even slowing down in their destructive activities.
And the worst is, we don't even admit it. THAT'S the issue we're afraid to confront.

 

Ok first of all, if violence does not "work", then how did the United States government manage to exterminate almost all of the former indigenous inhabitants of North America? How did Hitler manage to conquer all of Europe?

Ah, so you're advocating the extermination of anyone that disagrees with you. It's good to know where you stand. To be frank, there are a lot more of us than you. Use violence against a more powerful majority and you will either be imprisoned or may have violence visited upon you.

Here's what it comes down to: violence is violence. It is not inherently good nor is it inherently bad. It just is.

Feel free to take this position. However, if you decide to act on those positions you will be imprisoned, at the very least, as you should be. If you want to threaten peaceful members of society like me and billions of others because we do not fully accept your credo then we'll be content to remove you from society to prevent you from harming us.

 

I dont support insane people.

 

Unless it is against animals. Not so much humans, though.

 

Dude! Where did I ever advocate exterminating people who disagree with me? Please stop trying to put words into my mouth and distort what I am saying. The only thing I wish to see exterminated is this system that enables a minority of people to get rich off the destruction and torture of the earth and animals

To steal some of Derrick Jensen's premises for his book Endgame:
-"Civilization is based on a clearly defined and widely accepted yet often unarticulated hierarchy. Violence done by those higher on the hierarchy to those lower is nearly always invisible, that is, unnoticed. When it is noticed, it is fully rationalized. Violence done by those lower on the hierarchy to those higher is unthinkable, and when it does occur is regarded with shock, horror, and the fetishization of the victims."

-"The property of those higher on the hierarchy is more valuable than the lives of those below. It is acceptable for those above to increase the amount of property they control—in everyday language, to make money—by destroying or taking the lives of those below. This is called production. If those below damage the property of those above, those above may kill or otherwise destroy the lives of those below. This is called justice."

I'm not trying to force you to accept anything I say. I'm just trying to get you to question the assumption that this culture will stop its destructive habits just because we ask it to, or because we buy energy efficient lightbulbs.
The only thing I want is for the destruction of the earth - our home - to stop, and I will do WHATEVER IS NECESSARY to make that happen. I'm not trying to threaten anybody to accomplish anything personal. I'm just trying to protect my life and the lives of those humans and non humans around me and the life of the land that supports us.

 

Who's insane here, those who are killing the poisoning the planet for money or those who are fighting back and trying to protect themselves?

 

Both.

 

I find it ironic that "environmental groups" do things such as destroy property- it seems counterproductive. If houses are destroyed by fires, then more trees will be destroyed to rebuild these homes. The trees that were originally used to build the house would basically have been harvested in vain. Violence against people and property only creates destruction, which I am assuming these groups are supposedly against. By destroying homes, pollutants are released in the air, especially from things which are toxic to burn. In essence, these groups are contributing to the ecological problems.

I feel the same way about animal products such as fur. I don't support the fur industry, but if someone wants to wear a fur, I would much prefer that person choose a vintage or used coat. The spray painting of furs only means that a.) the animals died in vain and b.) now more animals must be killed for fur. Plus, spray paint isn't exactly environmentally friendly. As Ghandi said, be the change you want to see. Violence has never solved problems.

Julia "Butterfly" is a wonderful example of someone who made a difference w/ non-violent methods. She stayed in a tree "Lula" for years which prevented the lumber company from logging those trees. She acted in a way that was consistent w/ her values. Trying to stop the destruction of the environment by destroying other people's homes is not consistent. Those who justify the use of violence only discredit their efforts and make it harder for other environmental groups to accomplish the ultimate goal of unity and peace between man and nature- to stop the destruction of our planet and home.

Peace and love

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/03/earth-liberation-front-be_n_89651.html

http://www.consumerfreedom.com/news_detail.cfm/headline/1561

What violence?

 

well i don't support any of them financially and i don't support tearing things up to make a point because then you're left with a bunch of torn up crap, whatever else happens, but i do support the need to recognize the complex interactions of living organisms and our environment with them and our utter and absolute depedence on that complex web of life. i also support recognizing the awairness and individuality of nonhuman living organisms.

=^^=
.../\...

 

Yes, I support environmental groups that don't end up hurting the environment or the environmental movement. What is the worst threat to any movement? The extreme radicals, whether it is the radical Islamic groups, radical Christian groups, or radical environmental groups. It is going to be the little steps that we all can do that will help save the environment, such as buying food locally, buying products w/ little packaging, recycling aluminum, using energy efficient appliances, unplugging items not in use, properly disposing batteries and other toxic electronics, turn off heat/air while not home, use fans instead of air conditioning, turn of the water while brushing teeth, etc. There is so much all of us could do that will make an impact if we all pitch and it wouldn't require destruction of property! I recommend reading the Green Book because almost all the tips are simple, easy things we all can do and it doesn't require us to move into a log cabin w/o electricity and water!

Peace and love

 

I support their motives, but not their methods. I believe we could also succeed going about the way of Gandhi in terms of our activism.

 

There's a book you should check out. It's called "As the World Burns" by Derrick Jensen. I think you'd find it interesting...
Here's an essay by the same guy called "Actions Speak Louder than Words":
http://www.hopedance.org/archive/issue30/articles/jensen.htm
definitly worth reading

 

I can understand where they're coming from, and sometimes people get so discouraged with the way the world is that they stoop to the very people they loathe's tactics.

When that happens, you've already lost sight of your goals and you need to take some time and re-evaluate your standards and just chill.

If you think you can heal harms by harming, I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that is effective much less than you'd think.

Once you fight violence with violence, you become the thing you hate the most.

I haven't bothered to read about ELF/ALF's current antics, but when I first joined here, they'd destroyed a bunch of S.U.V.s. Commendable in taking action, but it was the wrong action. It didn't stop people from driving them (take a look around) and it probably hurt the car owner a lot. Plus even the S.U.V.s could be reworked or broken down to be useful.

ELF/ALF is very misguided.