" Important peoples' " charts

I'm curious to see the charts of people like
John Lennon
Hitler
George W. Bush...
see what their charts have to say about them and how much of it applies?
I'm really curious to see what Bush's sun sign is especially, as well as the rest of his chart.

 

I used to habitually create charts for celebrities and other famous individuals, mostly for the purposes of honing my astrological intuition. Having a fairly retentive memory, I happen to remember a bit about each of those charts:

John Lennon:
Libra, Moon in Capricorn, Mercury in Scorpio, Venus in Scorpio

Hitler: Aries (Taurus/Aries Cusp), Saturn in Leo square Mars in Taurus (some say this was a major contributing factor to his megalomanical disposition -- two debilitated malefics squared = potentially demented stuff)

George W: Cancer in 12th house (house of self-undoing/karmic debt in it's negative manifestation -- seems appropriate, doesn't it?), Moon Leo, Mercury Leo

Travis

 

Bush is strongly Plutonian (power hungry/destructive) as Pluto is conjunct to the ascendant. He has Mars square Uranus which is the "cowboy aspect" (no self-restraint). This works badly with Sun being square Neptune (the chameleon) which gives him a tendency to lie.
http://www.astrologyindepth.com/George_W_Bush

 

In traditional astrology (no Neptune, Uranus, or Neptune), we would notice the ruler of his ascendant, the Sun, is in the 12th house. Saturn is severely debilitated as it is "under the Sun's rays". This is a big debility in traditional astrology. The 12th house represents secret enemies and also secrets. When Saturn is debilitated, it makes one a liar. So in addition to a debilitated Saturn, his ruling planet, the Sun, is in a very weak house so it has trouble acting on its own.

 

what is his sun sign? Leo? That would be my guess.

 

Cancer

 

hmmm... really???? Weird... I love Cancers!! And doesn't Bush have blue eyes...? I ask because every guy i've ever seriously dated has ended up to be a blue eyed, very watery Cancer.

 

Appearances aren't determined by Sun signs. His Sun by the way is relatively debilitated. His rising sign is Leo, so he is actually ruled by his Sun, but the strongest planet (called Almuten in traditional astrology) is Venus which is also in Leo. So really in the end he is ruled by Venus.

 

I thought sun signs to affect apperances...? Bush is a Cancer, and his face is round.
http://hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295372

This is really fascinating though... I'm still confused by this whole "debilitated" issue...

 

If you read my post in that thread, I did a rather simplified version of the traditional method of finding appearance. Traditional astrology is very complex . Modern astrology tends to have cut-and-dry delineations like Sun signs = appearance, but when you think about it, there can only be 12 types by using that method. That's why you have to look at several things and then put it together.

When I say "debilitated", I am using a system called "essential dignities". This is one of the basic building blocks of astrology until modern psychological astrology decided they weren't needed.

Basically what this means is that one of the first things I do is figure out the which planets are weak and which are strong. House placement counts as well.

Using Bush as an example, his rising sign is Leo. This is the first thing I look at. Leo is ruled by the Sun, so I look at where the Sun is.

Bush's Sun is 13 degrees 46 minutes Cancer in the 12th house. The Sun has no power at all in Cancer. When you think about it, it's the Moon's house and is a night sign, so the Sun isn't at home here.

Then I notice his Sun is in the 12th house. This is a very bad house. The end result of all of this, is his rising sign doesn't have any momentum to act. It's almost as if his Sun is sitting at the bottom of a well with no way of getting out. If his Sun was in the 10th house, it would still be weak, but it would have momentum at least since the 10th house gives momentum (it's the house of career among other things).

My next step would be to take each planet, and based on which degree in which sign they are placed, I figure out if they are strong or weak. I have tables to help with this, but since I've done it so much I can get a good idea pretty quick.

For example, his Mercury is 9 degrees 49 minutes in Leo in the 1st house. According to the essential dignity table, Mercury is said to be dignified by term. This is moderately good. Plus it's in the 1st house which is very strong. This makes his Mercury stronger than his Sun.

I do this with every planet. The planet which is the strongest, and there is actually a point system, is called the "Almuten". The Almuten is the ruler of that person and influences his life the most. In Bush's case, this is Venus. o, if I were to do a detailed reading, I would use Venus to represent him as a person.

Regarding his Sun, it is approaching a conjunction with Saturn which is bad, and Saturn is less than 16 degrees away from the Sun. This is a very bad situation called "under the Sun's beams". When Saturn is in a bad place it can cause one to be a liar, and this is compounded with the fact that his saturn is in the 12th house which also deals with secrets.

So basically I was able to figure this out without using Uranus, Neptune, or Pluto. If I wanted to spend time on this, I would look at which fixed stars are conjunct his 1st house and Venus in particular.

 

It's strange that you criticize "cut-and-dry" approaches to astrology while simultaneously saying things like "the 12th house is a bad house".

The 1st cardinal rule of authentic astrology is that there are no inherently good or bad placements. Yes, we can express astrological knowledge in terms of the essential dignities, but ultimately, even highly debilitated charts can manifest in overwhelmingly positive ways.

For example, in it's positive manifestation, the 12th house is the house of alignment with spirit. It governs regeneration and the ability to overcome adversity. Amongst famous individuals, this positivity was perhaps best exemplified by Gandhi, a 12th house Libra, willing to sacrifice his personal desires for his spiritual ideals (and synchronistically enough, the creator of this thread has what is probably Gandhi's most famous quote as her sig ).

Travis

 

By cut and dry I mean things like "Cancers have round faces!".

The 12th is a very negative house in traditional astrology. It represents secret, incarceration, curses, long term illnesses, and secret enemies. However a planet being placed there doesn't always mean it represents the house in which it's placed.

Since you mentioned a cardinal rule I've never heard, I'll mention an actual cardinal rule found in most traditional books: A planet acts through a sign in connection to its house. In other words, for 12th house matters, I first look at the sign on its cusp, then the planet ruling that sign, then the exaltation of that sign, then the rulers of that sign's triplicity, and finally the planets if any in that house. This will give me everything I need to know about that house. Granted I did a quickie on Bush's chart, but the basic idea stands.

A birth chart is a map of someone's life. Every chart has good and bad. This sets up the pattern that we have to work with. Traditionally a birth chart on its own only gives part of the picture. To really work out what's happening I need to run primary directions and transits to see when things will happen.

The 12th is always bad. There are three kinds of houses:

The 1st, 4th, 7th, and 10th are called "angular" and are good.
The 2nd, 5th, 8th, and 11th are called "succeedent" and are medium.
The 3rd, 6th, 9th, and 12 are called "cadent" and are not good.

However, there are varying levels. The 1st is better than the 10th, but the 9th is better than the 4th even though the 9th is succeedent. The 12th is at the bottom of the ladder preceded by the 8th.

Yes one thing we do in traditional astrology is make qualitative judgements all the time, but I guess I'm strange in that I think curses and secret enemies are bad. That's just me though.

 

Yes, which is no more cut and dry than about 10 statements you made in response, including "the 12th house is a bad house", and "The Sun has no power at all in Cancer".

A great deal more important than "when things will happen" is the nature of the soul being represented by the astrological chart. The true power of astrology lies in its ability to reveal an individual's tendencies and karmic accumulation. Understanding these factors is the key to overcoming fate and applying astrology in a fashion conducive to spiritual growth.

You are correct that the 12th house can be representative of secret enemies, "curses" etc. But like I said, that is in its negative manifestation. If the afflicted native chooses to conform to the constraints imposed by the 12th house, then they have established an instant connection with spirit. I'd say that makes it worthy enough not to be relegated to the "bottom of the ladder" (which is of course illusory -- there is in actuality no ladder, only energy manifesting in different forms). If this potentiality isn't acknowledged by the astrologer, than the recipients of astrological knowledge are being done a disservice.

Travis

 

Let me regroup here.

What I am talking about is the kind of astrology that was practiced since the Hellenistic period until about the year 1700. Natal astrology as we know it wasn't practiced until about the 5th century BC. This is when the familiar system of houses, aspects, and so on were defined. Before that, astrology was an omen-type system that was developed by the Mesopotamians where they took records of what was happening while Jupiter was in Capricorn, then in Aquarius, and so on. We actually have some of these records still.

Astrology almost died out between the 18th and 19th centuries. Then in the 19th century, some Theosophists, most notably Alan Leo retooled astrology to fit a psychological model. He and other astrologers stripped down the techniques so that it was simplified, and the system of Sun signs was then developed.

Originally, astrology was a full system where you could find out when to do something (like marriage), answer specific questions like "will I get the job I just applied for", and you could even use it for rituals. There is an entire system for magic using traditional astrology.

Today astrology is primarily birth charts which is a small part of traditional astrology. In traditional natal astrology, you could not only find out about the character of the person, but you could find out about all aspects of their life and what will happen to them. The focus of modern natal astrology is character and spirit which is also done in traditional but only comprises a small part of what one can do.

Somehow today, many adherents of modern astrology believe that the height of what can be achieved in astrology is to find out about a person's psyche. In that sense modern astrology is better. However traditional still talks about the person's psyche just not in as much detail. This detail is made in the other areas.

Some of the houses have different meanings in traditional. The houses in traditional were developed to be logical and encompass all areas of life good and bad. They are all meant to be universal since all of us have these things. Some differences in the houses are:

4th house - traditional father, modern mother
10th house - traditional mother, modern father
6th house - traditional chronic disease and labor, modern health
8th house - traditional death, modern sex.

There are other differences. The 8th house makes me laugh though since in traditional, sex is represented by the 5th house. The logic here is that the 5th also represents children and entertainment. The ancients wisely knew that sex resulted in both entertainment and children. Somehow the moderns figured it should be in death's house.

Modern astrologers may look at traditional as pessimistic or fatalistic, however it really isn't. It does force you to put aside your opinions and desires. It forces you to look at every chart objectively. This means that there are certain things that will come up negatively, certain things are positive, and certain things are kind of up to the person. Some things are inherently negative for most people such as death, disease, enemies, and so on. Other inherently positive things will be lots of money, entertainment, relationships, friends, and so on. In traditional we are able to fine-tune all of these things, so that we can find out how many children you will have, their genders, the appearance of your lovers, if you will have lots or little money, and so on.

Modern astrological charts are almost always positive or negative with a positive wrapping. This is how our society is now. People expect good news. For people who want a subjective psychological reading, then modern is better. If you want to have objective truth, then traditional is better.

 

I forgot to address this. What you are talking about would be handled first by the 9th house in traditional, and second by one of the Arabic Parts called the "Part of Spirit". This is derived by a kind of astrological formula. In Bush's case, his Part of Spirit and Part of Faith is in the 10th house in Taurus. The 10th is both profession and mother, and it's also one of those influential houses that overshadows almost everything. I don't think you need to be an astrologer to add up spirit+mother+profession+overshadowing.

His 10th is ruled by Aries, and his 9th by Pisces. Pisces in the 9th is someone who pulls back outwardly with religion but takes it very seriously. However this is tempered by his Part of Spirit and Part of Faith being in Taurus which is stubborn and, well, bull-headed. Not very forgiving. PLUS, this being in the 10th in Aries shows an aggression when dealing with the public and this is something that is blatantly obvious to everyone.

His Part of Faith is in Gemini and is very duplicitous, and he likes to talk about it. Gemini is ruled by Mercury which is in his 1st and slightly dignified, so he wants to talk about it but is not very good at it.

So while internally he takes this very seriously and by nature wants to pull back, he feels compelled to push religion very aggressively and is pretty inept at it.

 

Actually, that's not what I was talking about. This 12th house in essence pertains to consciousness and spirit. It is a microcosm of the human condition that we as ego-bound beings are all subject to. Every human must inevitably establish a connection with spirit in one way or another. The difference between your average person and a person with the Sun in the 12th is that they do not have the option of delaying the establishment of this connection. When they attempt to, they inevitably self-destruct -- hence the house's inauspicious reputation. Ultimately, however, just as Pisces represents universal consciousness, the 12th house is representative of the plight and potential salvation of every human. Though those unaffected by the 12th house's immediate influence may be able to experience stability derived through an ego-paradigm for longer periods of time, all relationships with ego are by definition impermanent, as well as ultimately incapable of sustaining well-being. The 12th house simply brings the experience of this universal truth to the forefront of the native's being.

Travis

 

The 12th house can be hell and your own prison and undoing, if you have a bad moon. Otherwise, the 12th house is prominent in the charts of many politicians, presidents and prime ministers. A paradox perhaps, but it has all to do with dreams and the ability or inability to carry them out. Nothing is more destructive than a meticulously built personal dream coming down, crashing and burning in your soul.