re: feminism

Maybe. But I dunno, I kinda figured people are always going to be weighing up the pros and cons. There's not much that can be said to be entirely positive for everyone, but from what's been said, feminism is largely not "going too far" - rather, individuals who would probably have been assholes anyway are using it as an excuse.

 

I agree with you, self

Never assign to malice something that can be laid at the feet of stupidity.

 

Haha, yeah. I don't for a moment think that that **** on the bus who expects someone to give up their seat is really a feminist. I'd imagine that, 100 years ago, she'd have wanted people to give it up just because she thinks she deserves special treatment.

We get the same kind of thing here, with "political correctness gone mad", and it's largely used by people who are just unaware of how bad it has been for minorities and still is. But even if it has gone "too far", it's been worth it. People forget how acceptable racism, homophobia, sexism etc. have been, and more importantly, how little time has passed since then. It's not been 40 years since racial slurs that would be considered absolutely horrific by pretty much everyone if they heard them in private could not only be tossed around in public but even be used for campaign slogans - "Want a ****** for a Neighbour? Then Vote Labour" is one particularly nasty one. Fact is, if we're now in a position where shit like that can't appear in public, PC is doing its job, and if a few people get a bit butthurt because others feel comfortable about saying "actually, no, that joke was racist, and no-one who isn't racist could find it funny", well, they're twats.

Kinda wandered away from feminism, but the point is, half the criticisms of feminism are about individuals who'd be self-righteous cunts whether they had equal rights or not, and the other half are from people who "aren't sexist, but [something deeply sexist]". There are valid criticisms of feminism, but they're seldom raised, and shouldn't be used as an excuse to reverse all the good that it's done.

 

exactly! and one of the big complaints about PC is we're working so hard to not offend everyone else that we're offending ourselves. Castrating ourselves and our own rights to avoid hurting someone else's feelings, but getting a dick in the ear for the trouble.

 

I agree up to a point, and so often it's someone passive-aggressively saying "Oh, obviously I like a laugh as much as anyone, but other people might be offended...". Part of me is inclined to say "well, how about let's wait until they are offended" and take that whole "the right to offend is more important than the right not to be offended" angle, but at the same time, I feel that the "double standard" is still kinda necessary; I'm fine with people making gay jokes as long as they're actually funny, for example, but my mates know that, if I get offended, it's for a good reason, and even if they don't understand what it is they still need to stop.

With the male female thing, it's a lot trickier. The sheer numbers mean that women aren't visibly a minority, and men tend not to notice things like under-representation or whatever because they don't really have any reason to look for it. I think there'll always be conflict anyway, because equal or not, men and women are very different. That's not to say they should receive equal pay and all the rest of it, but I still think it's unlikely that, socially, men and women will ever be treated the same.

 

I'm more of an equal opportunity asshole. I don't go out of my way to offend people, but if it comes to a point where I have to either offend someone else, or offend myself...I'll offend someone else (and it takes a hella lot to offend me, with the sheer amount of varied people I know)

I mean, to give a rather crude example, I was the only white guy hanging out with a bunch of black guys in south texas, and we were all cool with each other. New guy, real uptight guy came into the group, and got offended when I used the much loaded 'nigga' (me being white as all hell). The other guys were laughing about it, and this guy got all up in my face over it, and he's like 'you dumb cracker' and all this, and it's like 'dude, I'll drop my pants and prove I'm blacker than you, now shut up and fuck off before I shame you so bad your mama wouldn't claim you.' which just got the rest of the crew laughing even harder. Ruben, the 'nigga in charge' looked up and told the new guy to back off, that I was cool, and he could deal with me being there or pick up his balls and go home.

There's something said for just ditching all the crap and being cool with everybody, and in my experience (your mileage may vary) these people that like to be assholes because of being 'persecuted' are the same people that'd find some other reason to bitch.

or, as I said to one guy that came up and said 'your people enslaved my people!' 'dude, the romans enslaved my people, the danes enslaved my people, my people enslaved my people, but at least my people didn't sell me into slavery as a prisoner of war. You've got a problem with anyone, it should be with the africans that caught your great great great great grandaddy and sold him off to some Spaniard for a barrel of rum.'

He walked off, muttering, because he couldn't find a comeback for that.

I agree with you one certian aspects of the male/female thing, but I think we should all have the same freedoms of

make the same cash
be allowed to have sex with whomever other consenting partner you please, to hell with numbers or sex
go in whatever state of dress or undress we choose
have the right to our own bodies

you know..the basic things.

 

there isn't a king that doesn't have a slave among his ancestors, nor a slave that didn't have a king among his own, to paraphrase hellen keller.

at any rate, what can you do but be as good a person as you know how to be? why hold a grudge about something that someone else likely had nothing to do with and carry it over into every interaction? sexism, racism, etc. i can't help what other people do, and i know when ive been wrong. i'm a forgiving and pretty fair minded sort, though i do love a good fun argument. not a debate, that's too rational. i mean argument. it gets the blood flowing and frequently creates a bond you wouldn't otherwise feel. i get attached to my argue buddies. if someone can put up with MY shit, i'm more that willing to put up with theirs. lift a couple pints and get over it.

 

exactly! it gets the stupid dominance crap out of the way and establishes equality.

 

Oh totes. The best thing is, those guys are often the ones who'll chastise you for saying a forbidden word (I'm a big fan of "fag", personally), but then say something which is absolutely racist/sexist/homophobic/whatever and think that it's perfectly fine just because they didn't say the N-word or whatever. I forget what it was, but there was an occasion like that where we were talking about some stupid thing, and within the flow of the conversation he said "well, I suppose if you've already come out as gay, no-one's going to be too surprised if you come out as a paedophile too". There was just this looooooong deathly silence and I just said "Yyyyyeeeeeah. Anyway..." Later on the same guy got all arsey about me making a joke about Christopher Reeve, because apparently that's just Not Cool?


[QUOTE =Born25YearsTooLate] I agree with you one certian aspects of the male/female thing, but I think we should all have the same freedoms of

make the same cash
be allowed to have sex with whomever other consenting partner you please, to hell with numbers or sex
go in whatever state of dress or undress we choose
have the right to our own bodies

you know..the basic things.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, as I say, it's the social thing. To be honest, I'm pretty sure women judge each other more over sex than men judge women, but that's just me. But yeah, as organisms we're different. The way we think about sex is very different, I found recently; turns out men get a sort of endorphine "reward" every time they look at something attractive, which women don't get, and it's the nature of the looker rather than what they're looking at because it works for gay guys as well as straights. We therefore have a biological incentive to be checking people out which women don't have. Which is why I find it kinda amusing when girls try to be laddish and check guys out the way I do. It's like, yeah, it's nice that you're trying, but you're just not getting what I am out of this.

That's just one example, but you get my point. There's a point when equality is actually absurd, when someone is trying to be equal but having to work to do what the opposite sex does instinctive. I'm all for opportunities, but I think it's quite likely that, even if total equality in terms of opportunity is achieved, men and women will still want to do different things.

 

Lol..how about this 'people, ya just ain't gonna be happy if you're comparing to everyone else, so just suit yourself'

 

But logically they were fighting for equality, not the ideal of having all women in tight leather and high heels whipping men and making them their slaves. So they should have thought it through more and called it gender equalism.

 

I guess it was a way of explaining to people that they weren't equal. A lot of women at the time thought it was fine because both genders had their place in society. I can understand that to some extent, and there's a lot of people who, in a more equal opportunities world, find the freedom of choice hard to deal with. But then you get to the specifics of it, and even if you're happy with a society with clear roles and expectations delineated by gender, men were still getting the better deal.

 

What i dont like about feminism is that it penalizes men for being men.

I was a guard once, and there was a wall clock behind this lady. I had to check the time while going through those particular engineering offices. She ended up accusing me of harassment and throwing me off the post. She had done this with impunity to 3 other male guards. The company simply shuffled me off to another post, but it was still stress inducing, humiliating, and degrading.

Sexual harassment accusations have become out of control. So have most feminists. Problem is im having trouble refuting their argument that men are the cause of the evil in this world - war, environmental devestation, etc. Thus, i feel somewhat guilty for being male.

And doubly so for being white, but thats another story.

-Lutzi'ya

 

I think we do need to make a distinction between 'gender equality feminism' and 'militant misanthropy disguised as feminism'

gender equality's great.

being harassed because you're male is like the police chief's son burning down your house and saying 'my dad runs this town, what're you gonna do about it?'

 

shoulda woulda coulda...you weren't there, you weren't in the trenches fighting to be treated like a full-fledged person, you don't know what it was like...so you're in no position to criticize them. the founders of the feminist movement didn't have your 20/20 hindsight. gimme a break.

 

To me, there's really no difference between an Andrea Dworkin & a Pamela Anderson. Just opposite ends of the spectrum.

 

I agree that yes, hindsight is 20/20, however I wish to speak as a person, to another person. I am becoming demonized for being male. I am now, according to the opinions of many who claim to represent feminism that because I'm heterosexual, I'm a rapist (All hetro sex is rape- claimed by not only dworkin critics, but a great many militant misogynists that haven't read a bit of her works.) If I'm polite to a female, I'm oppressive (demeaning and patriarchal behavior meant to oppress) if I'm rude to a female, I'm a misogynist or sexist, despite the female's behavior to me. If I'm staring in the distance, lost in thought, and a female thinks I'm watching her, I'm sexually harassing her, but it's fine for a woman I don't know to come up, grope, grab, poke and prod at me, to say any manner of offensive things, but to be excused because she's 'playing' or thinks it's funny. Were I to do half the things that females do presently to males, I would be arrested and sent through the court system. If a woman exposes herself to me, it's an expression of her rights, but if I look, I'm a lecherous dog. If I expose myself to a woman, I'm a pervert. If a woman walks outside nude, it's permissible for her to cock an attitude because she's put herself on display, but if I do the same, I'm not expressing my rights, I'm a public nuisance. Women have become the very beast which they fought.

'One must take care in fighting beasts, lest a beast they become. When one gazes into the abyss, it also gazes back'
(paraphrased Nietzsche)

I am no longer a person. I am a a mere beast to be whipped, castrated, and trained. I do not have thoughts, emotions, needs, wants or desires. A person has those things. I do not, as I am no longer allowed.

And women wonder why there are no men left.

 

why do you care? honestly? you know you're not a pig. i'd worry less about the crazies hurting my feelings than the legal rights you're owed. shake it off.

 

where the hell do you live, man? i can't believe these crazy women you describe are anything but a tiny minority cuz i sure don't see the like anywhere i've lived. you sure this isn't just a submissive-masochistic fantasy of yours?

 

i think it must be.