Whidda? I'm joking people. I'm not about to go and fight - I said what I said in jest. I think there is a language barrier, because I'm not making claims that "such-and-such" person is in the wrong, while "such-and-such a social group or nation" is in the right, like most people are doing here. I have yet to place blame on a particular targeted group in this situation. Please, if you are going to call me "not-hippy-enough" I suggest that you take your personal attacks elsewhere. Yeesh. I'm quite aware of the bees' nest. *shrugs* I have every right to be posting here just as much as anyone does. Anyway, Georgia declared a ceasefire and removed all its troops from South Ossetia. But the Russian army continued pressing on anyway. Looks like they're going to install a pro-Russian government. It's a shame. Georgia had started making real strides toward democratic government after more than a decade of authoritarianism. This guy, Saakashvili, was running on an idea of national unity, which included South Ossetia and Abkhazia. So, it remains unknown when he will flee the country and if international brigades will join and carry Sakartvelo to victory! It really bothers me that people are bickering about "who threw the first stone". People should be bickering about how best to stomp the Russians. Putin is a menace. Russia has been meddling in the affairs of its neighboring nations in ways like this since the break up of the Soviet Union. Moscow maintains little statelets in several countries - South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Transdniester in Moldova. And in the Ukraine and the Baltic states, they use the significant Russian minorities there to stir up trouble.
10.08.2008 Andrei ARESHEV Conflict Between Russia and the US in the Caucasus Upon his arrival to Vladikavkaz from Beijing on August 9, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said that Georgia had committed a crime against its own people, dealt a blow to its own territorial integrity, and caused a tremendous damage to its statehood. He also said that under the circumstances it was hard to imagine how South Ossetia would now be convinced to become a part of Georgia as the Georgian aggression, which was a crime against the Ossetian people, had led to numerous fatalities among the civilian population and to a humanitarian catastrophe. Subsequently V. Putin described the drama in South Ossetia as genocide while visiting a refugee camp in the Alagir district. Thus, V. Putin has thoroughly assessed the recent developments from the political and legal standpoints. Russia will provide the entire necessary assistance to South Ossetia at the initial phase of the crisis relief. V. Putin pledged that the refugees would be able to return to their homeland and declared that Russia would contribute 10 bn rubles to rebuild Tskhinvali as the first step. Russian President D. Medvedev said he would instruct the military prosecutor to document the crimes against civilians in South Ossetia. The clear and definite statements made by the two Russian leaders contrast sharply with those of the Georgian leader who obviously expected the situation to evolve not the way it actually did. Overwhelmed by fury, he keeps ordering new devastating attacks on Tskhinvali and South Ossetia’s villages and begs his Western patrons for help. Georgian Minister for Reintegration Temur Yakobashvili indicated that the West would surely exert pressure on Moscow and then Georgia would emerge from the conflict as the winner. For some unknown reason, Mr. Saakashvili and his team concluded that the aggression and genocide for which they are responsible would remain unpunished. Russia’s reaction to the tragedy in South Ossetia has shown that the Medvedev-Putin tandem functions with high efficiency and synchronism. Clearly, the attempts of external forces to destabilize the domestic political situation in Russia by instilling divisions in its leadership have failed. Western media said that the Georgian President (already called a war criminal by a number of politicians) had offered a ceasefire directly to Russian President D. Medvedev. The reports were refuted and branded disinformation by the Kremlin. No doubt, there can be no truce with Mr. Saakashvili until all the Georgian guerillas are expelled from South Ossetia and the infrastructure of the Georgian state terrorism including army bases, military installations, air force bases, and the networks of their economic support are maximally destroyed. It transpired that the news about the withdrawal of the Georgian army from South Ossetia had been another lie. In all likelihood, the disinformation is spread by the representatives of Georgia in order to win time to regroup its forces. They must be routed completely in order to ensure peace and stability for the Caucasus. Russian Prime Minister V. Putin said: "For centuries Russia has played a highly positive stabilizing role in the region, being a guarantor of cooperation and progress. Things have always been and are going to remain that way – nobody should have any doubts about this." V. Putin was absolutely right when he said that Russians will continue to regard the Georgian people as friends. The severity of the fighting in which the Russian army, peacekeepers, and the Ossetian self-defense forces are currently engaged shows that Russia is facing a serious and ferocious enemy who recognizes no moral limitations on the way to its criminal objectives. Certainly, this does not apply to the Georgian nation – dragged into bloody adventures for which it will certainly have to pay, it is yet to draw conclusions from the experience. One item from the timeline preceding the aggression deserves particular attention – the Georgian-US Immediate Response 2008 military exercise, during which the US instructors trained the Georgian forces to carry out “anti-terrorist cleansings” in residential areas was completed on July 31. The exercise included such activities as cleansing terrorists from villages (allegedly in the framework of the preparation of the Georgian military for the operations in Iraq) and ensuring the security of the civilian population. The atrocities perpetrated by the Georgian guerillas in Tskhinvali had been taught by the Western instructors under the cynical disguise of “the struggle against terrorism”. The actual objectives are of course completely different. Former Georgian Foreign Minister Salomé Zourabichvili, who is certainly a very well-informed person, said the US presence in Georgia comprises a broad range of activities including the training of the Georgian armed forces and the monitoring of the strategically important corridor passing across the Caucasus. The Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline is a part of the latter. Zourabichvili opineds that the main purpose of the current conflict with Russia is to strengthen the loyalty of Georgia to the US and Great Britain and to guarantee that they will have control over the country and, consequently, over the South Caucasus. It should be noted that the escalation at Russia’s border coincided in time with tensions in China’s Xinjiang autonomous region, where a terrorist act has taken place during the Olympics. A few days earlier, an arms depot was found in Bishkek, the capital of Kirghizstan, attended by 10 US military servicemen and several diplomats from the US Ambassy in the country. Georgia’s aggression against South Ossetia is a war in the interests of other players, a war in which Georgians are to play the role of cannon fodder. Unless the aggression is suppressed immediately in the tiny region of the Caucasus, new and much more extensive regional conflicts will be imminent. Now, as during WWII, the Russian army is fighting heroically to protect not only the Caucasus but the entire post-Soviet space from the fascist plague.
Only Russia Can Save South Ossetia From Humanitarian Catastrophe. facts to prove the reality of a humanitarian catastrophe in South Ossetia: - Bombardment of the territories leading to casualties among the civilians. On August, 4, Georgian armed groups attacked a funeral procession in the village of Mugut in the Znaur district of South Ossetia. - Aimed sniper fire of a hospital in Tskhinvali - Shortage of fresh water. Officials of the Mixed Peacekeeping Forces and the OSCE, together with a group of Georgian and South Ossetian ecologists, monitored the quality of water at the Edis-Tskhinval water pipe and reported 61 cases of illegal water siphoning. That is Tskhinvali is receiving 75% less water than needed. - A mass exodus of women and children from the conflict zone to North Ossetia and other republics of the North Caucasus. According to the Federal Border Guard Service of Russia, over the past few days 1500 women and children crossed the border and entered the territory of North Ossetia. It is worth mentioning that they are passengers of the humanitarian trips organized by the Russian authorities. And we can only guess how more people fled South Ossetia without any help… This is a real catastrophe for such thinly populated republic like South Ossetia.
Please refrain from posting multiple posts in a row, viktoriya2008. Please read the terms and conditions before you post here as well. Here: http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=212559
hmm, that's one way of looking at it. I really hope this isn't the general consensus among Russians. I don't think destroying everything of value in Georgia is necessary to liberate Ossetia. As of yet ground fighting hasn't extended beyond Ossetia. The defeated Georgians are calling for a ceasefire, while the Russians say that they're just trying to regroup for a counter-offensive...
Hello Cold War mentality. United States has been meddling in the affairs of OTHER nations, what gives them the right? Because they're spreading the holy goodness of democracy?
I don't blame Russia, I do blame the foreign players who have armed and trained the Georgians and the Georgian government that seemed to be acting on the premise that they had support from those foreign players should they attack first. The Georgians need to wake up and see that they have been used, and when push comes to shove the US and Israel aren't going to back them up against Russia. I would consider that it may have been a move to destabilize the flow of oil through the pipeline, and this agression is accomplishing exactly what was desired. It will certainly lead to higher prices on oil temporarily, and has instantly lead to a strengthing in the US dollar.
We're all brainwashed because when it comes to situations like these everyone of us use only informations we're given for making conclusions, and those informations are mostly incorrect (alright, not all of them, but we, from where we're standing, can't tell right from wrong) therefor I think it's better not to discuss it at all (media war, hello)... And, no, you're wrong, the thing at Kosovo didn't start 20 years ago, it was slowly progressing over the 80 years but Tito and later Miosevic didn't give a damn (yeah, that's right, not the people, but Tito and Milosevic, don't you forget that!).... Arrrgg, this whole things is so complicated and I don't even wanna start writing about it!...Just don't judge when you know only the fragments of the story....
WHAT CAN BE SEEN FROM A CLOSER DISTANCE NY Times only referred to it in this modest and brief statement: Russian officials say Georgia provoked the assault by attacking South Ossetia last week, causing heavy civilian casualties. But Western diplomats and military officials said they worried that Russia’s decision to extend the fighting and open a second front in Abkhazia indicated that it had sought to use a relatively low-level conflict in a conflict-prone part of the Caucasus region to extend its influence over a much broader area. This is the only reference in the western press as to what provoked the military action on the part of Russia. (You clever ones over here, ask yourselves WHY! I bet it's not a difficult one to answer.) The "relatively low-level conflict" involved a complete demolition of the town of Zhinvali and death of about 2000 civilians by Russian reports (we'll sure know better soon, when the refugees start coming to Moscow). The truth is, there is no possibility right now to know for sure about the missing relatives , if they were killed or survived. Right now I talked with my close friend Soslan, who is himself from Ossetia and has relatives in Zhinvali, the very heart, or rather, "wound" of the conflict. As he says, firstly (3 days ago) the ceasefire was announced by the Georgian party and it kept for 3 hours. Local people relaxed a little and leaved their shelters; that was when the mass artillery & missile attack started, and continued until Zhinvali was ruined down completely, leveled down with the earth. It was those motor-vehicle based missiles (aka GRAD), that cover completely a whole area in order to destroy everything in that area. It is very difficult to imagine, what "urgent need" provoked Georgians to use these missiles in this civilian area 3 hours after the announce of the ceasefire, if it wasn't to possibly kill all the Ossetians in that area. ...While the missile-carrying motor-vehicles have been made to retreat by the Russian troops at present, the area is still being shot through by the snipers from the hills not so far away. Such situation is still persisting until now. Under the circumstances it is not even possible to start life-saving operations in the ruined houses in order to find those still alive under the ruins. That is why the Russian party is applying the term "humanitarian disaster" to describe the local situation. Georgians are trying, as possible, to kill every Ossetian alive in the area in order to protect themselves from the possibility of partisan war later on. Such has been their approach from the very beginning of the conflict in 1991 and on. That was, actually, why the presence of the Russian troops was called for right from the start. This fact, known but too well to the western media, is not very comfortable to even mention right now, seeing the political sympathies of the West. Not comfortable, for it will partly destroy the image of Russia-aggressor, as well as that of Georgia as innocent and yet heroic victim of that vicious aggressor. ... One of the western media reports spoke about British journalists present in Georgia, who tried to film these events in order to send reports back to the media companies they represented. According to that report, they were met by the Georgian military "with intensive swearing and threats". When later on they confronted with Russian peace-makers, the report goes on, these were "more relaxed" and had nothing against the reporters. The report said, it was "natural" to see Russians "more relaxed"; now you can understand better, why it was "natural" for Russians to welcom the journalists, while for Georgians it was more "natural" to swear and threaten the curious British guys from the newspaper. Such presence was highly undesirable, even though Georgia had and still has all the good will of the western media to their services. Now you, seekers of truth, don't you know what it means, when all the media are telling the same? It means only one thing: they are giving you just one side of it. My friends, just don't fail to ask yourselves the right questions, if you want to learn the truth. Are you not living in the world of lies and corruption? Now why are you so quick to accept every lie they are feeding to you from their mass media? Just have it, that the truth is always somewhere in between. Just remember whose interests the media serve, it will spare you much effort and needless discussions. Have you forgotten? HE WHO PAYS THE PIPER CALLS THE TUNE!!!! Please, notice, the whole text is my own handwriting(c), except for the NY Times citation in Italics. Kostya ...TO BE CONTINUED...
I don't see any problem with Russia being in Ossetia. I don't think it should have ever been part of Georgian territory. I completely understand Russia's reasons for sending troops into Ossetia. But the fighting is extending beyond those borders and into Georgia itself. That is a worrisome act of aggression because it isn't protecting the Ossetians or Abkhazians.
Noboby likes that... And you could bet it would go exactly like this. But this "Russian aggression" is what we see on the surface of it. However, whose interests are involved? What particular interests and how involved? ...If Russian reaction was 100% predictable, then why the duce did the Georgians do it?... This was obviously a well planned and carefully prepared action... What was their calculation in this action of henocide? Had they calculated to just kill all the local Ossetians at one "good" stroke? That might bring condemnation upon them... Well, it has not, so far... And then, no problems in the future with those separatist Ossetians! Will the Russians hit with bombs? Probably. But... American friends (no! INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, of course) will help then to rebuild Georgia... Build a brand new Georgia instead of the junky one they have at present? Not too bad, you know... Sounds bad enough, I know; but every action DOES have its explanation... The president got supported now even by his political opponents! He's becoming a national hero. Not too bad for him... ...This is what every war is first of all: a dirty thing. Go, ask them Old Hippies! They must remember much about it... Of course, Russians will have their way now. They will recall all the Chechen terrorists coming from the Georgian territory all the time, as well as other "grudges" they hold against Georgia. That is predictable, too. ............................ No no no. My recipe is in the Bible book of Isaiah 2:4 (engraved on the wall in front of the UN headquarter): "And he [God]will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore." Obviously, this is the only solution to it: to stop ever learning war! Learn rather peaceful qualities of the heart. Learn love for fellow human, humility and art of putting up with one another. Cheers, Kostya
Georgia is an ally of the us, pro-west, and has expressed in joining nato. russia definitely doesnt like that, after all countries like georgia, moldova etc were always part of the russian empire. putin is prime minister and his boy medvedev is president, and putin has been described as a "modern czar", a leader who wants to strengthen russia and expand its influence. From what ive been reading, russian troops have been going further into georgian territory and even bombing its capital. from this point, I predict that russia will end up either setting up a pro-russia puppet regime in georgia, or possibly taking over the country. Who knows where this is gonna lead.
This is it: "From what we all can read" in the media. And what is it, that we can read? (you mean Western media, I guess) "Georgian people scared...", "We see Russian troops advancing and we are scared..." Recently there started to appear some grains of information about Ossetians, but still, it is more about "the separatist "troops"(!!!) being under attack by those Georgian". But was it, indeed, "troops", that were under attack and suffered? Let' see: the (civilian) town of Tzhinvali, destroyed totally, with reported 2000 killed, which it is not possible even now to confirm. It may be more. Even now that the town is down, the Georgians still continue their sniper fire there, making impossible any humanitarian actions to help the people get out of their destroyed buildings. What kind of military goals are being pursued in this manner, you might want to ask?... ...I think I can sense the difference between the (so much emphasized by the press) here and there "scared" Georgians and 2000 of dead Ossetians with their homes totally destroyed (of which you will learn from the media some time after the conflict is over). Oh, I forgot to mention 15(!) Russian peace-maker soldiers dead. Brilliant operation against the "troops", as accomplished by the NATO trained Georgian army! You will agree, this stinks. ..... Yeah we know this story about the Russian imperial ambitions; of course, I can't like this. I'm a Russian living in Russia, how can I like such hostile attitude towards the peoples and countries, who have their sovereign right to decide? Just unfortunately, there are always some minorities that suffer because of the majority's choices; worse than that, they get persecuted -- because of the political propaganda. But neither do I like the US imperial ambitions -- and I need not expand on that, I hope. But it is always peaceful people, who suffer most in these war of the 20th -21st century. Of course, these imperial parties will have their way. Frankly, I don't believe there will be any public protests, which could change it. The Bible book of Daniel speaks about the continuous competition of 2 kings: the one "of the North" and the one "of the South". You have no problems identifying them.
Where is our wonderful United Nations ? Shoudn't they be mediating this conflict? Its not about which side is right and who is wrong. a ceasefire is necessary to insure safty for civilians. Let The UN sponsor negtoiations.
Why blame it on the UN Piney? Were they told the US and Israel were training and arming Georgia? And the US currently just seems to be stirring things up and threatening Russia with sanctions. I don't think the Russians will back down until the Georgians with their western allies lay down their arms first.
It seems they've agreed to a truce and the Russians are pulling back so the fighting it mostly finished. All I will say, is that I'm thankful that nato didn't let Georgia join(as the United States wanted). If that had happened the situation might have been alot worse.
