Religion vs spirituality

R emaining on the dark side of
E nlightenment
L iving in total
I gnorance of the truth within the word
G od has spoken
I nstilling and worshipping fear while
O ppressing all understanding of the true
N ature, which is God



S ouls journey along an ascended
P ath toward enlightenment
I ntegrity and
R ighteousness lead the way, converting
I gnorance and fear into
T ruth and
U nderstanding
A scending into the
L ight, fear is erased
I gnorance replaced by
T ruth. God's wisdom and understanding are
Y ours throughout eternity

 

so creative! i love love love

 

Very beautiful and honest poem

 

That is amazing. Perfect in every single way. I'll relate it to this quote I heard long ago;

"Religion is for those who fear hell, Spirituality is for those who have been there"

Peace

 

wow, that was great. really cleverly written. you have got a real talent.
also love the quote above snocbor!

 

nice constraint, worked perfectly.

 

I found it blatantly obvious, embarrassingly simplistic, antagonistic and heavy-handed. But of course, the sentiment is so likely to appeal to most people here that they couldn't resist showering you with ridiculous praise. Good for you, you're just like everyone else. And if you're going to celebrate a word that you think means something important, next time don't choose a pop culture buzzword like 'spirituality'...which always suggests some heavily affected sense of cosmic importance, often supported by a completely meaningless series of superficial concepts and images.

Actually, your poem made me angry... first because you're attacking something as huge as all religion all over the world without any apparent justification, and second because you're perpetuating a vacuous, meaningless concept whose definition attempts to encompass everything from superficial awareness to The Celestine Prophecy, but nothing much deeper than that.

 

simply beautiful

 

I think he might have had a point there, but overall, dude, I think your post was a little harsh.

Chill, take a breather.

It was a pretty good poem. Simple and sweet.
I'm not really into the whole bash all religion, thing, though.

It isn't religion that causes wars as so many would believe, it's people that use it as a front.
Religion isn't all bad, if you find satisfaction in it.

 

Everyone's got their own spiritual trip----the path they are on. I dig the message of this poem and it makes a lot of sense to me. Religion is an institution. It isn't god.

But I guess many people can find the spirituality underlying the religion. They ignore the political history of the institution. They ignore the inconsistencies and hypocricies of it, because that side is not important to them---and in return they get not only a spiritual path, but a community that they can be a part of. That is very good for them, and I say all the power to them.

There are others who are ignorant of the institutional aspects, and think they have 'Found it.' I feel sorry for them, for they are merely tools to be manipulated by the institution----they buy into the arguments of the institution without really understanding what it's all about---they get something in return, but their closed minds, harbor their own shadows (the Jungian shadow---our dark sides), and they tend to act out the same hypocracies, and biased ways that are chatacteristic of the institution. But they are on their own path too, and if they don't block their own ability to grow, they will move forward.

My path, like a few others, rejects the institution. I am spiritual, but not religious. My path has taken me down numerous directions, and while I have a deep relationship with the universe and its sacredness----I don't have the community to reinforce it. I have explored each modern organized religion both subjectively and objectively. I have tried to see it from the inside. I have tried to understand them from a cultural standpoint, I have critiqued them from a historical standpoint---I have found they are all valuable, they are all true, and I believe they are all related----but I have found a much more powerful connection to the divine outside of the institution---in the spiritual. And that's where my path is. So my path is right along with this poem. I hope everyone in their various paths is truly sincere to their path, and truthful to themselves. More power to them all.

 

I guess I have to add one more thing---I don't like the term New Age, because it describes to me what Heywood Floyd seems to be getting at here. New Age to me represents what Native Americans call Plastic Shamans---a lot of it represents the commercial crap that some people use to exploit others.

But there are many others (and they are labelled New Age) who are very sincere in their spirituality, and yes, the term spirituality can encompass many different things, within those different things there are many genuine paths to the divine. If you are sincere, and true to yourself, than you will make that connection.

I define religion as an institution because that is exactly what it is. It is a man-made entity of traditions, rituals, codes, ethics, a culture, etc. etc. Again it is very valuable, and teaches, and does good. We are here today with all the advancements, and the good things of society we have because of religion---but it is an institution, and therefore must maintain itself as an institution. Look at the history of any religion to see how well it treats those outside of the institution. Unfortunately, it also can't help but create an 'us vs them' mentality.

Spirituality to me, is something deeper than an institution. Spirituality is a part of the institutions, and it is the source of the power of the institution. But the institution is not the spirituality---it is up to the indivdiual to find the spirituality within the institution (based on its teachings)----and the interpretation will be tainted by the institution. And it is up to each individual to figure how deep to go within that spiritualty.

But spirituality by itself is non-institutional. It is simply finding that deeper connection to the divine. I like to use the Native Americans as an example---In all their thousands of languages and dialects---there is no native word that means religion----even in the Southern US, Central American, and Northern and Central South American tribes, where the institution was becoming more developed, they did not yet have the concept of religion. In other words, there was no secular, and non-secular----everything is of the Great Spirit to the Native American, so how could something not be sacred? You could be in sync with the Great Spirit, or not in sync---but you are still a part of the Great Spirit.

I was raised protestant. I grew up in America, so that alone means that culturally I am Christian, and Judeo-Christian---whatever I believe, culturally that is me, like any other American for the most part. But Christianity, or any other religion, involved my making an existential leap to believe in God, to believe there is something after death. I could easily reason God out of the picture scientifically. So it is something I had to believe. Religion could only provide so much encouragement. (And then there were other institutional issues for me).

I lived in various parts of the world, I searched, I saw some amazing things, many things came from directions I wasn't looking, but I found myself down a completely different path. A very personal very spiritual path.

And today, I don't 'believe in God or whatever you want to label it.' I don't have to believe, because, I KNOW there is a God or Great Spirit, or whatever you want to call it. It could be no other way with the experiences I eventually had outside of the institution. Things that are beyond reason.

 

What use is that spirituality if it starts showing itself off as better than religion? Isn't that a case of becoming what you despise? True spirituality is completely open and accepting and not branding and excommunicating a majority of mankind as you are doing with this poem. You not only insult religion, but you have also grossly insulted spirituality.

 

I can dig that Bhaskar----that is a very good and valid point. It does attack religion. And spirituality is not something in my opinion that attacks anything. But it does cause someone to question and to reconsider.

Perhaps those of us on the side of the poem see it, not as a condmenation of religion per se, but more of a shock statement, the intent of which is to open the eyes of those who are religious, that there is much more if only they dig deeper, even into their own religion.

There are, afterall, Christian mystics, Islam has the sufi's, Both Buddhism and Hinduism encourages a deeper look underneath the veil of reality into depths the religion cannot really go. I am sure that the author did not know you Bhaskar, or mean to insult your religion. Besides, within the core of your religion, and all religions, is that same spirituality----what he was attacking was the 'institution,' and doing it in an attempt to wake up those caught up within the institution. (I'm sure he will correct me if I am wrong). It certainly had the shock value, judging by some of the responses, but you shouldn't take it personally. Everyone has there own trip, and those who can't dig the spirituality, will sticj with the religion, but maybe some of those will wake up to the spirituality within the religion, which will add to their trip. Other's, like myself, are on a trip outside of the institution. Some of those, are searching and lost, and this poem would awaken them, that there is no need for the institution to be spiritual.

Sometimes you can be subtle, other times you can be shocking and blatant, different people will respond differently. The poetry of my choice is Japanese haiku----it is very subtle, and very subjective. I have to admit, I do not read much other poetry so I don't know if this is true of all poetry----but haiku is something that you mull over like a good wine. you don't read it and stop there---you roll it around a while and experience it's different aesthetic experiences. Here is some of my own haiku, which subtly speaks of the same thing (though, again the experience of haiku is very subjective, so you may come up with different meanings and feelings from my haiku----that is up to you):

To those deeply religious I have this one:

Fuyu kaze ni
hitonashi no tera
kane nari ya

The winter's wind,
in an empty temple
the bell rings.

Picture the very spiritual sound of a large temple bell, only in this case, it is in an empty temple in the dead of winter. The Japanese actually says, without a person, so perhaps the temple is abandoned. So there is no one to hold up the rules and laws of the institution, to help someone achieve enlightenment (which could be symbolized by the lone ring of a temple bell). Without anyone here, there is no institution---just empty buildings and statues. There is no one to ring the bell-----yet the winter wind, acting through nature, blows the heavy bell against the clanger, and it rings. (haiku is always connected to the season, and therefore intimately connected to nature). Nature, which to me is the most spiritual, does not need the teachings and the institution, it just is.

For those who are not searching:

Tera o sagashi
michi wakarazu
ochiba kana

Searching for a temple,
losing the way.
The falling leaf!

This is an autumn haiku based on it's seasonal word, falling leaf. Have you ever turned to look just in time to see a leaf fall, have you heard the silent tap as it hits the ground? This is so spiritual to me----it is the feeling of Yugen I wrote about in the thread on Shinto under animism. You don't need a church, or a temple, an institution, to experience that. It is a most natural almost imperceptibly instant moment of spiritual enlightenment. No cause nor effect. No right nor wrong, just a small moment of subtle beauty that has endlessly happened almost back to the dawn of life on earth.

And for a bit of shock value (try using this as a lesson in a church and see what kind of reactions it will incur):

jimmon mae
shoufu no shitai
tsuyujimo ya

In front of the temple gate
a prostitute's corpse.
The frozen dew!

On one level this haiku is senryu---a humorous attack at life. But on a deeper level, your reaction tells how you accept a prostitute. The frozen dew indicates it is a time when the nights are starting to drop below freezing. A certain woman of the night, weakened by her station in life, was too weak to survive the temperatures (or she befell some bad luck). Some people may think she deserved it for her sins. Others may point to the shallowness of another religion as she may have sought help in a temple. I intended it as a very sad thing, for the prostitute is just as much a sacred individual as a priest or anyone else, including you and me----but we all die, whether within the institution of religion or outside it (as she is outside the temple), even amongst the beauty of an early morning's frozen dew. Of course there are lots of other concepts buried within this.

I leave you with another one---again it speaks of the cold deadness of winter. The moon is symbolic of zen enlightenment, but the moon shines everywhere, not just in the ze temples:

Oku e Oku e to
fuyu mori ni
gekkou ga

Deeper, deeper
into the winter's forest,
the moonlight...

 

the poem was forced, the poem was subject driven, what's that college quote, a writer should allow for interpretation on the readers part, i thought it sounded like an attack, but the way it was set up was more interesting than most look, but on the subject matter of the poem

for some reason i believe there is a god, but most of the time i write it off as something that was forced upon me from about three hundred years ago, and i'm just repercussion, i've thought of the whole i am god, and if i am a god, then i'm looking for something better than a god, and the whole god is dead idea just depresses me, i would rather be blissfully indifferent than suicidal, call me normal,
in any sense however, one becomes spiritual based upon what they experience, i believe the idea of spirituality is much more so a whimsical way of saying that one is discovering themselves, i think it says a great deal of a person if they can look at something unbiasedly, and then decide upon which factors benefit them and which don't, and understand how they are different, and different things benefit different people, i think it's psychologically unsafe to doubt everything, but i guess it works for some people, but i also think it's boring to believe in something one hundred percent, doesn't it take more faith to doubt something and yet still believe in it, but hey i see it working for some people,
because really if you're completely honest no one's really that happy, but everyone eventually finds something, and in a round about way, someone's individuality is there happiness, and their key to understanding themselves, and their key to spirituality, it just depends on if you want to look for it

 

I also have a problem with people bashing the institutions all the time. Yes, there have been plenty of bad things, but they have also served the very important purpose of protecting and preserving the teachings. Without religious institutions the teachings of the masters would have been lost within a few generations, or would have been confined to a small group and not available to the world at large. What a waste that would have been!

All things have both good and bad in them. I believe it is wise to accept them in their wholeness.

 

Yes Bhaskar, that is true. Elsewhere in this forum I have written that institutions are responsible for bringing us to this point in society. Institutions are a neccessary evil----most of the good and the bad of society emerged from the institution. Society is based on the institutions of culture---which incudes religion.

The institutions have good just as they have evil. But one aspect of the whole hippy thing is to question the institutions of our modern world. If there is no questioning of the institutions then there is only decay and stagnation. A wave took us from the individualistic tribal cultures of the hunter societies which were very non-institutional, into the early planter societies where institutions really began. Another wave took us from the agricultural societies into the indstrial age. Both of these ages were very pro-institutional, because they were group focused. Survival and growth of society required its citizens to be massed into groups for common causes. The institution gains its power from the group. It promotes the group ethic (only some are more tricky about it than others). But we are now moving into the information age.

The information age is more individualistic than the previous ages. Mass production is being replaced by production based on individual tastes. In return society is becoming more splintered in terms of fads, interests, and so forth. At the end of the industrial age we saw the hippy movement come about. The hippies were all about individualism. They experimented with group-based concepts like communes----but it was still all about individualism. As one sociologist stated it: hippies were about spontaneous individuality. I think most people on this forum are too young to remember---but back in the 60's when the hippy movement was beginning to spread---people dressed in whatever they thought was cool. There was no fashion----only an anti fashion. You would be cool to put on a top hat and tails, or a headband and feathers. Brightly colored clothes from all ages, paint, feathers, beads, whatever you thought was groovy---the fashion statement had nothing to do with fashion, or the establishment.

Still today, if you look all around you can see the institution breaking down----or evolving to a more individualistic ethic. I have never seen so many people that were so non-institutionally-spiritual based. Even in the 60's when religious values were questioned by so many, people explored other institutions for the most part----because that was what the questioning led to then. And that's resources and writers such as Alan Watts knew about. But today you have so many non-institutional sources, it is amazing.

So yes, the institutions are great, but to leave it like that, will only lead to decay and destruction of the institutions. It is time to grow, and explore, for the new age will probably be a synthesis of the institution and noninstitution. Really---even many churches are exploring concepts and ways that would have been considered fairly radical 20 or 30 years ago. There are many people today who find that religion does not meet their needs. I am one such person. But there are other people who religion does meet their needs. Each person is on their own trip, and society is trending towards a system that will provide support and reinforcement for all these trips.

 

Judas22 sounds like Gary Busey dont he ???

 

I agree with you (also loved the haikus, thanks). Healthy questioning is very important and an essential check to balance the power of institutions. However, this piece of work here and others of its ilk, don't question, they judge. When questioning, one must not be confrontational or judgmental, but must be open to, indeed seeking a rational and satisfying response. We must question respectfully and with the desire to understand and help rather than to embarass and tear down.

 

Also, even in the native cultures, there was a rudimentary instutional structure, though more open. The tribe, the councils of elders, etc. were definitely institutions.

As for the hippies, I disagree about the fashion thing. For a lot of people, indeed a majority, it was the trendy thing to do. Which is why you'd hear so many people parrotting the same empty bunk about fighting the establishment and stuff. These are the ideas of a few powerful thinkers and the majority of the movement simply followed along in their tie-dyed hemp clothes. I have a lot of love for ther hippie movement and I respect the achievements of that era greatly - it was one of the best things to happen to humanity. But I don't believe it was as rosy as you show ti to be - a lot of the people in the movement were blind sheep. Or at least, that's how I see it. I don't remember being there.

What it boils down to is that we will always need and have institutions of some form. Rather than break them down, the right thing to do is to transform them into a force for good and healing, equality and prosperity, peace and harmony. I believe it is possible.

 

spirituality is the realization that life is ever unfolding and can't be hemmed in, religion is for control freaks, haha, great poem