California Proposition 8

Are you trying to say that Paul condoned homosexuality? Do I really need to quote his writings that specifically say otherwise?

I agree with the dissent that sodomy laws are constitutional, but I would (have) support(ed) overturning them legislatively.

 

Are you saying Paul was not a sinner? Are you saying Paul is infallible? Is Paul your idol? Do you seek to be Christ-like, or do you want to be like Paul?

 

Leviticus 20:13 seems pretty straightforward to me. What part of the word 'no' don't you understand?

 

So are you advocating putting homosexuals to death?

Or are you saying the bible is wrong on some points?

 

I'm not going to debate biblical authority with you. I was responding to a quote from Paul, taken entirely out of context.

You apparently understand neither the concepts of divine inspiration nor progressive revelation. (Hint: On this particular question, see Heb. 1:1-2.)

 

what i'm trying to understand is where you draw the line between church and state, in light of the fact that in 10-15 years you will no longer be in the majority. It is in your interest, if you want to preserve your own rights, to respect the rights of others.

Why not debate biblical authority? You seem to believe the bible is an authority when it comes to the secular institution of marriage - on exactly what basis am I allowed to debate you? or is this simple tyranny of a temporary majority?

 

I'm interested less in the true "source" of the Bible than how humans (Church authority) have bowdelrized it, bent its allegory, eschewed entire gospels deemed "unfit" for the ignorant masses.

The Bible says slavery is holy. The Bible says homosexuality is immoral. The Bible says the world is, what, 4,000 years old.

Using such a fallible (and beautiful) text to suppress millions of people, convince them that their incessant horror and suffering here on earth will be rewarded after death, so they keep their mouths shut and just take it: That's what I call "divine inspiration."

"The devil can cite scripture for his purpose." - Shakespeare

 

I learned a new word today. And I agree with your point.

 

I remember sitting in a pew, in a job I had while in school singing the liturgy for a synagogue (my gf was jewish and got me the job, but I had to pretend to be jewish). I was amazed to see their translation of the old testament was in such plain english, word for word, and line by line with the hebrew on the opposite page.

there was a section about how to properly circumcise your slaves.

I do understand progressive revelation. I also understand that the disciples were rebuked more than once by their own teacher. Your book is an arbitrary collection of the writings of some men, chosen to fit the world view of those doing the choosing, as stated by real_large. It has nothing to do with secular law. And Jesus himself never anointed Paul as an authority on his word beyond that which was spoken while he was on earth.

Tell me this. If Jesus were here today, and he saw the way you preacher speaks of homosexuals as disgusting and not worthy of dignity, do you think he would stand idly by (don't give me this "love the sinner, hate the sin" crap. I've seen the look of hatred in young people taught to hate the sin, and you can't hide what is in your heart from your own god)? Did he not intervene on the behalf of an adulteress, and did he not hang out with the least well regarded elements of society?

Do you really think he would choose to hang out with YOU?

When asked what was the most important commandment, what did he say? Hint: it wasn't "call your neighbor's lifestyle disgusting and do your best to make sure his life is difficult".

 

Yer boy Twain said it best, MJ:

"If Christ were alive today, the last thing he would be is a Christian."

 

No, I don't want them put to death, and yes, Moses was wrong when he advocated that. Mosaic law was the foundation of Judaism for a long time during and after his life. Christians do not generally conduct themselves by Mosaic law, which is similar in many respects to sharia, the Moslem religious law, in being mean and vengeful. Jesus, for example, stopped the sharia-style stoning of an adulteress.

What I'm saying is that there is no Biblical support for same-sex marriage, and the quote from Galatians doesn't cut it since it is not specific in this regard. A Roman Catholic priest, the one who conducted the marriage of my nephew in September in San Francisco, had pro-Proposition 8 information sheets in the reception area of his church. That was how I became aware of Proposition 8.

Same sex marriage has been legal in Canada since 2006. However, there is wide-spread opposition to it among church leaders. See for example http://www.familyaction.org/churchcorner.htm.

 

After what the Catholic church has been responsible for in the past I would be hard pressed to use them as an authority on human rights of any type.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases

I don't see how that simple statement can be misunderstood, or qualified. It seems all inclusive to me.

Your Churchcorner link, are you getting paid for hits? Because it doesn't seem specific to the conversation. Only a general listing of church related links.

 

I don't know what Paul condoned. Before my time. You can quote him all you like, it's your right.

But what you can't do is enforce your misguided judgements of what is right or wrong on me if I choose to disagree.

 

Paul also said:

 

If Paul thinks there are neither male nor female, he needs glasses. As for neither bond nor free, here's a little poem I found.

"Stone walls do not a prison make, nor iron bars a cage."
I do not wish to contradict an ancient, honoured sage.
But iron bars and walls of stone, when placed in right relation:
If that don't make a prison, man, it's a hell of an imitation!
-- author unknown

​

Or, let's put it another way. The next time you go to jail, I can ball your girl friend for you and you won't mind since we're all one in Christ, neither male nor female, et cetera, et cetera.

As for the link I posted, it would be nice if they'd send me some money, but I'm not holding my breath. I can find about twenty other links that are more to the point, if you don't have the energy to find them yourself.

 

I think you missed this bit:

The world of man constitutes all forms of inequalities, but under Christ there are none.

 

You're right. For a while there I thought I was living in the world of man. And which world are you living in?

Proposition 8 applies to the State of California, which is in the same world I live in, last time I checked.

 

Hard to say when the radical right pushes their agenda based on fanatical religious teachings and outright lies. I've never known an elementary school in this state to teach marriage of any sort.

And I am a California native, and life long resident, except for two years in my infancy in Boston. I attended a Catholic Kindergarten there, and the only thing I can remember about it was being forced to go to confessional. Hard for a kindergartener to come up with something to confess. It was way scary.

You appear to be from Canada.

 

I was born and raised in California and emigrated to Canada in 1968 to escape military enslavement. Currently I'm a dual citizen. If you like same sex marriage, you'll love Canada. In fact in 2006 two male Mounties in New Brunswick tied the knot, not to anyone's surprise. That just confirmed what a lot of people had suspected about Mounties all along.

 

dirty, your thoughts seem to lack a consistent position. You can't be for laws of god when it suits you, then for the laws of men, and expect both position to back up yours. Which is it? Do we base our laws on the commands of a supreme deity, or do we base them on rational thought and the lessons of history, and an expanding awareness of justice as we right the wrongs?