Why I think atheism is a waste...

I'm a betting man myself, but Pascal's wager always reminded me of those chain letters that tell you you'll be rewarded twentyfold if you send it out to your friends, and if you don't, you'll suffer a terrible curse. What do you have to lose? I usually delete those. I have some pride about what superstitions I'm willing to give serious consideration to. By the way, in Pascal's case, it wasn't just God you had to bet on, but Catholicism. Apart from the point that others have already made, that God could be a staunch Calvinist who thinks all papists should roast in hell, this is the only life we know, and if I spent it being a Catholic that wouldn't be a negligible price to pay, as far as I'm concerned. (No offense intended to Catholics, it's just not my cup of tea). There's also the problem that, for me at least, I can't just make myself believe any old thing at all simply because it's convenient. It has to make sense to me. In Orwell's 1984, there's a scene where the protagonist, under torture, tries desperately but unsuccessfully to believe that 2+2=5, which he must do in order to satisfy his tormentors.

But I do base my own faith on a wager model deriving more from William James than from Pascal. In situations of uncertainty or ambiguity, like the existence facing all of us, it seems to me to be essential to bet our lives on something. I think the bet needs to be consistent with the best available evidence, reason, intuition, and good judgment, shaped by personal experiences, but we can't avoid making it. Not to bet is itself a wager. To me, belief in a Higher Power makes sense as a working hypothesis--not because I think I have nothing to lose and might hit the jackpot, but because it seems plausible in comparison with available alternatives.

 

Ha...you and I disagree about God, but that was funny.

 

And that's not a fixed view?

I'd second Al Kapwn's suggestion: Carl Sagan is a pretty damn good place to start. Many of us here have indeed read the Bible, we've also read lots of other things.

Life and the universe are so much more intricate, wonderful and awe inspiring than those ancient prophets ever imagined...

 

I like you, Lithium.

 

Tell me something clementine,
The things that I mentioned on the first few posts about the things wrong with the bible...explain them to me.
Its hard for me to get past those, seeing that theres a possibility that its not as stable as its supposed to be.

 

Your point being? This is a very weak argument.

I have read many non-christian books, articles, research if that is what you are implying, although I have yet to find a good reason to whether I should believe that this is all a lie.

what is it exactly that 'those prophets' imagined that is not as good as the world you would like? Christians are not narrowminded. They are able to see the world as you do.

 

The idea that you believe in God just to get into heaven is all true. Yes if you follow Jesus and do as he did then heaven is much closer, but there is so much more to that. It is about doing good, having a purpose in life and in the world around us.

You seem to believe that there is a God and that is often the hardest thing to do. Once you believe that it does become clearer as to why we are here, what we are expected to do and the bigger picture of life.

I am not a Christian just to get into Heaven. I know that I don't actually deserve that. It's about love and understanding.

 

My point was that while you are quick to accuse people of being scared to challenge themselves by reading the magic book you seem reluctant to consider the possibility that your own knowledge may be incomplete. You seem to have the whole thing figured out pretty nicely. That's great for you, but it comes across as somewhat breathtakingly arrogant.

 

Having faith is arrogant?

Like I said I have read a lot, I have studied this and have a good idea of both religious and non religious stances on this. You say I am arrogant about believing in God while you have said that the things the prophets taught are not as good as what you can see and do by yourself. That to me is also arrogant.

 

Not necessarily, there are those who have faith and still demonstrate intellectual humility, some indeed on this forum. Saying things like atheists just need to read the bible or accusing them of being scared of what it may teach them is a pretty good sign of a certain kind of supercilious self-righteousness though. Not a good thing if you're interested in bettering your understanding, scepticism and openness to other ideas are prerequisites...

I didn't actually, I was referencing one of my favourite quotes from Carl Sagan:

"In some respects, science has far surpassed religion in delivering awe. How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, "This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed"? Instead they say, "No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way." "

 

My observations lead me to believe that the followers of the God of the Western Desert have caused more than their share of suffering and anguish

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
the Buddha

 

Your favoutite quote? Surely then you believe in that quote and wouldn't use it if it went against what you believed?

I have said 'have you' read the bible, or i assume. that isn't telling people to read it. That alone for one so adamant will not change anything. The apprehensive comment was in response to you saying you were bored reading the bible and in a roundabout way an attempt to get you to explain why the bible means nothing to you. But as with most questions I have asked, you have ignored them and continued to use the 'arrogance' arguement in what I see as a good debate.

 

I don't "believe in" the quote. I think it tells us something interesting in a clever way... and no I wouldn't have quoted it if I didn't think it told us something interesting in a clever way. Like so often, I fail to see your point...

Perhaps you should have asked that directly in intelligible language. The bible does not mean nothing to me. The 'skip to the end' comment was very obviously a joke. I think some of it is great poetry, valuable allegory and cutting edge first-century philosophy. It has much to teach us and is worth studying. Some if it less so; confused ramblings, xenophobia, misogyny. Aside from its historical interest, much of it is great fiction. Negligible factual content, often self-contradictory. Its worldview is limited by the fact it was written by humans who lived nearly two thousand years ago and did not have access to the body of knowledge about the physical universe we have now. Interesting and valuable, yes. The only book I ever need to read? Bugger off... It will change your life in the sense that it will enrich it, and reading and learning more is never a bad thing. It did and could have little or no impact on my awareness of the nature of existence.

Anyway all of this is off-topic.

 

quotes i like.

It is not as in the Bible, that God created man in his own image. But, on the contrary, man created God in his own image. - Ludwig Feuerbach

Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people. - Carlespie Mary Alice McKinney

Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea. atheists will celebrate life, while you’re in church celebrating death... two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer. the hands clasped symbols bondage and enslavement.

Atheism is a non-prophet organization. - George Carlin Love Carlin!

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? - Epicurus

You do not need the Bible to justify love, but no better tool has been invented to justify hate. - Richard A. Weatherwax

i do believe there is an after-life, but in no way is it ur so called heaven.

 

My point was that you said that you didn't say you were better off than what the prophets said and you replyed with 'no it's a quote' so to me, I wouldn't quote something that I didn't agree with or that would not answer the question had asked. So I took it as, and like you have just said, that you qouted it as a response. Which means that you agree with it and feel that you view the world in a better way,

Thank you. It is good to know your opinion. I don't agree with all of what you have said, but then I shouldn't have to. It depnds on the way you read it and on the attitude you have when going into it. Yes the bible should be studied and yes it tells us a lot. I have at no point said that it should be the only book you ever need read, like I have said I have read an abundance of material to accompany it. Everything we read affects us in some way doesn't it? I finished a book last night, which has affected me.

 

Do we have more knowledge than the people who wrote the bible? A more refined understanding of the nature of existence? Abso-bloody-lutely. Yes we have a far more nuanced understanding of the nature of physical existence than was accessible to those ancient minds. The bible may have lots of interesting things to say about human experience but as a way of understanding the nature of the universe it is very obviously pitifully limited and lacking.

 

I'm going to let your arrogance settle. For one so set in your ways you haven't displayed much understanding of Christianity nor have you been very pleasant.

 

whats heaven?

 

I thought it would be fairly uncontroversial to state that we have more knowledge of the nature of physical reality now than was available to the authors of the bible. Unless of course you are one of those who believes that Genesis gives us an accurate account of the creation of the universe ... a view of breathtaking inanity which it's not really possible to argue against.

 

Yaaay, that's always been one of my favorites. For me it encapsulates something fiercely important: some religious people rail against science because it scares them, because they feel it might damage their view of God. I disagree; if you believe in God, I would hope that science would expand your view of him. All it does is uncover new and wonderful things about our universe.

Science doesn't have to be the enemy of religion.