Worst argument for the existence of a creator.

I'm sorry if i come across as aggressive.

It was just that you hit the nail on the head of what i was trying to argue against. I am here to discuss and debate. Sure i will consider the things you put forward.. and my answer was the consideration.

It means nothing that life exists because of ice expanding.

I just assumed that you stand by the idea that God influenced the design of ice to expand to create life.. which i still assume you probably do.

It's not particularly fun having a one sided discussion where you do not offer an alternative.. i would like it if you did.

If you are implying that i contradicted myself then you are wrong. Dice are not random. Chance and probability are systems used by humans to predict destined outcomes that we can't measure until they happen.

 

Well actually.. free will is a complex discussion that still hasn't been explained... it is not something we could come to a conclusion on... with the arrival of quantum physics there are all sorts of possibilities.

 

That’s okay, I’m just a little more laid back.

Regardless of whether there is a God or not I just find water to be an interesting anomaly.

Meaning? Meaning is often subjective and I thought you were more interested in objectivity.

That's true, I don’t deny it.

I’ve gotten into too many discussions that have deteriorated over word definitions or misunderstanding of what the other person was talking about, so I kind like to know what we’re really talking about first. Anyway, even if I disagree, I still find other peoples ideas interesting. Who knows, I could change my mind?

It’s just when some use the phase; “roll the dice” it usually is used to imply a sense of randomness, again that’s why I try to take my time. It usually saves time in the long run.

With your statement; “

It’s hard to see how you could believe in free will.

 

I guess so.

The biggest problem with debate i guess.

I admit what i said was confusing.. as i am confused about freedom of will and determinism. As i said.. by the accepted laws of physics today.. free will is impossible... the world was destined to exist as was human life.... BUT quantum physics has opened up new answers that.. although have yet to be proved... may change our ideas on determinism and linear time lines.

Which ever way you look at it.. something had to happen and i don't think it's amazing that the earth is the result. It's just the way things turned out.. and i don't think life is any more amazing than an un-inhabited planet.

Also, it is foolish to think that life can only exist with water and carbon based beings. Although we look for water on other planets to find the possibility of life like our own.. scientists have raised the idea that there could be many otherwise for life to exist... it's just that it wouldn't resemble anything like you have on earth. Who says consciousness needs a human-like body?

 

I've never heard this.

 

Well.. once again it is a position.. it is not always agreed upon... but by the basic laws of cause and effect we cannot have freedom of will.... in a scientific mind set at least... but as i said it is open for debate with quantum physics.

It is a bit of a paradox... because it seems we can make choices... but we should not be able to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

and a counter argument:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrödinger's_cat

 

I think we can agree to disagree. When you look at the accepted theory of the origin of the universe being the big bang, the mere fact of any kind of organization resulting is amazing to me. And it all coming down to the massively organized stuff we call life, all from a few micro seconds of a few laws of particle physics, well if it all wasn’t here, I’d say someone was making it all up.

 

I just don't think that the world is organised. The world is made up of so many atoms... and they are all just arranged into various shapes and sizes.. some moving some moving less... blah blah It is beautiful... but not due to organisation.

Lets agree to disagree :cheers2:

 

So when you say it's a position, what you actually mean is that it's as likely to be true as not and that there's no evidence one way or another, in physics or otherwise, because even if we discover that we definitely have free will, someone else can always say that we were destined to do so.

Quantum physics is not the panacea that it's being sold as, I can tell you that for nothing.

 

Oh, and no matter how persuasive someone might be able to be, if a theory tells us that something can't happen that we can clearly see can, then the theory's wrong, not the universe.

 

You must have a mighty different definition of organization than I do. The Human body would seems to me to be highly organized.

 

Well all positions are attacked from other positions that claim there is no evidence.

If we use physics to understand the universe then we cannot have free will... and this doesn't mean the universe is wrong or that the theory is wrong.. at the moment it does actually seem like we don't have free will.

As for quantum physics.. there are bound to be non-believers.. but it is something to consider.

 

I believe that the heisenberg uncertainty principle in physics does allow for free will at this point.