Not much time to comment for now, but if anyone here is interested on what's going down in Greece at the moment, here's a great site with continuous updates from people on the ground. http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog For those who support these actions, there could be a lot to learn from here in case something similar happens in the U.S. anytime soon (which I'm pretty sure it will...)
i just broke up with my gf of 2 years cuz her dumass was out in the bombs going off after she promised shed stay inside...i do support it tho
* we 've started discussing this topic with Crazy Horse in my introducing thread, so in order not to spam there, we'll continue it here* Crazy Horse, they ARE hiting companies and banks, but I am not talking about this kind of hitting, for destroying an ATM or even burning a building, doesn't realy hit such corporations as for instance Citibank, which will simply get closed and re-built. It only causes troubles to simple people and here we have a real problem, because those who we d like to join us, just turn against us instead. They go out next morning to get cash and see all bank closed and ATMs destroyed and what do they say?? "damn stupid anarchists, it is all their fault!". Next, even if the whole country goes onto the streets how long do you think it will take the police/militaries to make them run away with the whole tech proggress and super modern weapons we have nowadays? so far just a few tear gas bombs did the job. Of course we can assume that if the whole country stands together it is highly unlikely that the government will decide to just start shooting people, but we have even such experience in the history ( called Bloody Sunday -Russia has experienced). However lets assume we won and took out the government, what's next? what's the plan? complete chaos for sure. then new leaders? regime. and all over again- working hard to re-build the country's economy and system, while the government is getting corrupted? because the world's elite and corporotocracy ( if there is such a word, escuse my english skills) will never allow anyone to establish any new system, that doesn't suit them. So we need worldwide revolution. Let's assume the whole world one day just didnt go to work and started destroying everything around, in this case i am sure it won't take long untill they start shooting everyone to scare shit out of people. So no matter how far we can make it according to this plan, the result is one- misery, violation, deaths, fear, terror and chaos.and what are the chances that new gobernment or leaders won't get corrupted afterwards, to my opinion it is just a matter of time. because the whole economic system we use is an out-dated system. it doen't work anylonger. as long as there is money, there will be a competition between people. as long as someone has to sell something he can not afford to be honest or ethical, he has to sell it. As J Fresco said, when a doctor says to me that my kidney has to come out, I can never be sure whether he has to pay his yacht or my kidney has to come out. and here is my point... what if we had a new theory of economic system? a good developed one, like even J Fresco's theory. No, I am not his fan, but right now I am interested to learn more about it. what he offers is a resource based economy system. The resources our planet has are enough to feed, house eveyone if we use them wisely. There is no need to sell water, there is plenty of it on our planet as long as we dont poison it. There are plenty ways to stop poisoning it if we use natural sources of energy such as Solar Power, Wind Power, Wave Power etc According to the level nowadays' thechnology it is very cheap and simple to build solar and wind stations to provide with power the entire planet. It is no longer a secret that electrical cars would be way cheaper and less poisonous to our enviroment, but nooooo we neeed to sell gas!!!!! so it is the system that is our problem and world's elite won't give it up easily. if we try to destroy it, they will protect it, making our lives harder, more miserable or even shoot us if they have too. But what if this sytem just fails and we can smoothly move to a new one? how can it fail? well, just stop supporting it. what are first steps? -turn off the TV news to stay away from being brainwashed, use independent chanels , that emerging through internet -protect the inetrnet, for due to its informational flow world's elite lost control of it -boycott bank corporations Citibank, Bank of America, Jp Morgans are the controllers within corrupt federal reserve system. Our economy is based on debt (there is a nice documentary "Money as Debt" google it, that helps in a simple manner understand how money is created and circulated in our banking system). so if you have a mortgage- re-finance from another bank, if you ahve a stock- sell it, if you work for them -quit -dont join police/army and motivate everyone to do so, this is the power that rulling class uses against us -try to use independent sources of energy -educate your families and friends and join the movement everything I said is based on the information from www.thezeitgeistmovement.com, Zeitgeist The Movie, Zeitgeist Addendum and www.thevenusproject.com I am not a fanatic, supporting them, I am just looking for solutions as you are, so I would really appreciate if you and everyone watch these documentaries and tell me your opinion. If you think it won't work then why? If you have a plan that you think will work, offer it and I will join you best regards
Economic sabotage has a long history in revolutionary movements, and has in fact been largely successful much of the time. Even recently, many destructive corporations have been shut down by the actions of the ELF/ALF and SHAC. Sure, banks are banks, and their fucking big and will probably want to build many more- but if they want to do it in Greece they might have a little bit of trouble. This is why Greek anarchists have been so successful historically. Through militant action they have created spaces where the banks and police cannot touch them, and they are free to exercise their autonomy. This is what I see in the rioting of the last two weeks, only on a much larger scale. Now, there are many scenarios in which they could fail. In the other thread on this topic, I mentioned the need for international solidarity. If the unrest does not spread, the Greeks will find themselves isolated, and vulnerable to military intervention from another country. So if these autonomous spaces to not increase in size and number, the Greek uprising is doomed. Fortunately this is already happening. I also find it a little bit silly, the that destroying a bank hurts ordinary people. Besides the obvious fact that a bank has very little use within one of these liberated zones, there seems to be a common understanding there of the oppressive function that banks serve- and the revolt is growing daily. On a related note, the corporate media has been reporting of "hooded youth" destroying small shops, ruining the livelihood of independent owners, etc. This is false- many of these same owners are participating in the rioting. Also, by the PM's own admission, the police have deputized and armed with tear gas local neo nazis. Many of these have been witnessed destroying the property of small sho owners, hence the media reports. All anarchists have categorically denied responsibility for such acts. This may just be wishful thinking, but I think you've underestimated the sheer destructive power of a mob of angry, bomb throwing anarchists. However I think it is a testament to their ability to resist state violence that a few tear gas bombs have in fact NOT been very effective so far- and they've already run out once. These next few hours may prove you right though- the academic sanctuary at the Polytechnic has been suspended, and so the police have the authority until tonight to conduct a raid. The occupiers have decided to stay. So, we shall see. This is the classic pitfall of the partial revolution. Again and again, the oppressors become the oppressed. The peasants move into the partially ruined parliament, rebuild, and start the whole damn thing over again. Your right, a simple redistribution of wealth and power does NOT constitute a true revolution. But this is not what I see happening from here. Greeks seem to be just as disillusioned with the left wing as they are with the right. It is the institutions themselves they have turned their rage against. They are clearing the way, creating an open space in which they can realize their dreams. It is their rejection of authority of any kind that gives them an edge over uprisings past. I don't know what gave you the impression that those in the street have any desire to retain the old economic system system. The anti-capitalist sentiment on the street has been quite clear and well articulated from the beginning. No, it doesn't work for us, I would argue that it never has. However, I don't see how a system-any system- based on the exploitation of resources (and by extension, labor) can ever be free or sustainable. I also have my issues with each of the technologies you mentioned above (although that may be for another topic). The main point I wish to make about Greece though, leaving aside for a moment the fact I think ANY economic system is inherently oppressive, is that I don't think things can just move smoothly from one system to another. You said yourself that the elite just can't let it happen. Remember that the state has never needed to be provoked to use violence. Even if there was a complete refusal to participate across the whole world, a universal boycott, what do we have to back it up? If the banks and the barracks are still standing, how are we to create a world without money and violence?
From Occupied London: At first I was a little sobered by the news of the occupation ending but this sounds like it's for the best. They couldn't stay forever I suppose; a revolt is much like a living organism: always growing, shifting, evolving. I can see the wisdom now of taking the thing in a new direction. Stagnation means normality, which is the death of rebellion. With the looming threat of a police raid, I think it was an excellent strategic decision. Also, I'm quite sure this will come as no surprise to anyone paying attention, but the latest tests on the bullet that struck Alexis have indicated it was a direct shot. <gasp!> Full story here: http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100010_23/12/2008_103269 Another news site that hasn't been linked to yet: http://greeceriots.blogspot.com/
Another thought: Moving past the university occupations could help to weaken the media's claims that the revolt is merely the work of a few "hooded youth". Here's a newish statement from the Polytechnic:
For the most part- a riot van was fired upon by someone with a kalashnikov rifle the other day. However, there is speculation that this could be the work of a provocateur, as it was apparently fired from inside the campus, at a time when their sanctuary status is very tenuous.
crazy horse, I understand everything you are saying, yes , what's been happening in greece is not smthg new under the sun and I understand the reasons and motivations , and I know that protestors are reactors, but here is my point if all we accomplish will be just a new round in the old well known circle then I am not interested. I think what always motivated rev. leaders was hope to actually change something for real, not just the idea "you ve ruled now let us rule!" ( i am not talking about corrupt leaders who were supposed to just make changes in a country according to the world elite's interests), but those who realy fought for freedom, proggress, education, equal rights for everyone. yes, people are powerful when united, but when this power is unorganized or aimed to destroy the wrong targets it is as good as nthg. The point I am trying to make is, we should work more on organizing the movement and defining the goals, what really we want to achieve to see changes or to just release our anger? economic sabotage is about economically weakening an enemy, destroying an atm, or a building is not an effective method for economic sabotage, and infact (you said you find it silly that destroying a bank hurts ordinary ppl, it is not what I was saying) the only thing we achieve through this is ANNOYING ordinary people, who we actually want to join us. Cuz next day when I ve been out on the streets I only heard them complaining about damn anarchists, not damn system or government or even police. so yes I stand for solidarity, and meetings, but I think destroying the city is useless
